Purported Bin Laden Tape Likely Authentic

WINS NEWS ^ | 1/5/03

[ASA Vet]

The country is still there

I agree it should have been handled differently.
This should have been the 9/12/01 area map.

[eseales]

Smogger,

You really need to "read" what people write. You keep creating "strawman" arguments. I NEVER SAID BUSH KNOWS. Trust me, many things that happen within the military the President isn't aware of. What I said is I think a select few within the "black ops" section of the military are very confident they "got UBL".

I never said Bush knows. In fact, I think I said 3 times, he didn't know and that is why he has said "if he's alive, we will get him".

You really need to read instead of just making up BS.

[eseales]

Smogger,

And again, Saddam DID put out a video showing himself alive after the first week of the war when many thought he was dead. He put out a video to prove to those fighting for his side that he was alive and leading. Fact.

[Smogger]

I'm sorry I missed the "Black Ops" Bush doesn't know part.

[Tricorn]

"They're not attempting to occupy any lands."

They used to OWN Afghanistan. They used to OWN Iraq. They don't anymore.

"They're only goal is to inflict casualties on Westerners"

I don't recall this as their stated goal. They didn't declare war on Bali and Turkey, or even Westerners in these countries. They did declare war on the USA. I've seen some pointless murders by them. But I've seen nothing but strategic defeat for AQ, one after another. And they have a leader who won't/can't show his face, even though you couldn't pry him away from the camera prior to Dec 01.

I'll say it again. AQ has known nothing but defeat since 01, just as Hitler, despite numerous scary tactical successess, knew nothing but defeat in the west starting with Normandy.

"Only to rebut the assertion that Al Qaida has "known nothin but defeat" since 9-11."

Years from now nobody's going to look back on the present and say that it was nip and tuck there for awhile. Since AQ's sucker punch on 9-11, it's been a rout ever since.

[Smogger]

I wish I shared your optimism.

...but I don't.

We have a long way to go in this War.

[eseales]

Smogger,

Now that I totally agree with you on. We do have a long way to go in this war. But we are winning and winning decisively at this point.

[Smogger]

Now that I totally agree with you on. We do have a long way to go in this war. But we are winning and winning decisively at this point.

Your completely wrong about AQ's goals though. OBL has been quite clear that his goal is to bring about the a conflict between the West and Islam that will result in the West being tossed from that Araba penisula (or anyplace else Muslims are the majority). A reverse crusade of sorts.

[ZAKJAN]

"A reverse crusade of sorts."

Be that "JIHAD"??

[Smogger]

Eye. A JIHAD it be.

[Tricorn]

I just don't see any point in giving them more credit than they've earned. The difference between what they said they were going to do and what they've actually done can't have escaped the attention of even the most demented jihadist.

[Tricorn]

These are EXCELLENT points, and exactly why I think the more AQ threatens without scoring the more ridiculous they begin to look. Their side is failing and who can't notice it?

Also, remember UBL's video during Afghanistan with the rock cliffs in the background and the US geologist claimed he knew where UBL was based on the rock formations? In the next video, UBL was in front of a curtain. UBL used to make lots of videos back in the day, didn't he? Maybe he lost his camcorder?

[cogitator]

I look at it this way... Do you think that Osama has more people trying to protect him than Saddam did?

Yes. A lot more. Whether they like it or not. I heard about this on the radio a couple of months ago, and the article below is the first one I could find that explains it. OBL is hiding out in Pashtun country, and he's a guest of every one of them. Because of their customs, they'd rather die defending him (and keeping him hidden) than to give him up and lose honor:

Why Bombing and Warnings are Not Working (published in 2001)

"Unlike the Bush administration, bin Laden knows the Afghans well and he acted within pashtunwali to exploit its third tenet, melmastiya, or hospitality. As we know and have heard repeatedly, he is a "guest" in Afghanistan. Bin Laden's hosts, the Taliban, are bombed and beleaguered and had no way of responding. Cleverly, their guest timed his Al Jazeera ultimatum so that in addition to being a terrorist threat it was also a token of gratitude.

Of all aspects of pashtunwali, melmastiya is the one to which U.S. policymakers need to pay the closest attention. A complex etiquette surrounds the treatment and status of guests such as bin Laden. In a tribal Pashtun house, the male members of a family, the host and his sons, serve food to their guests but remain standing all evening in a show of respect.

Melmastiya's other and perhaps most relevant dimension is the requirement (nanawati) of providing refuge to anyone within the confines of one's home or country. It is a code related to nang. It is also the reason why Osama bin Laden has found a home in Afghanistan when nobody else will have him.

Bin Laden's stay in Afghanistan is not made possible by Islamic brotherhood or by the hard-line Islam he preaches. It is made possible by melmastiya. In Pashtun culture, a host gains honor by serving and protecting his guest.

The Taliban's extraordinarily polite requests to bin Laden to leave Afghanistan earlier this month were interpreted as weakness, skulduggery and time-buying ploys by Washington. In fact, the Taliban were acting the only way they know how. If necessary, in Pashtun custom, a host must sacrifice his life in the course of extending protection or refuge to a guest. That is precisely what the Taliban are now continuing to do, and what Osama bin Laden wants."

[Warren]

Osama should make a fake tape, really throw 'em for a loop.

[bayourod]

Of course Bush knows.
But our government wants the terrorists to believe that Ben is alive and is still the one that any acts of terrorism must be precleared through.
Dead leaders take a long time to authorize offensives, and even longer to finance them.

[walden]

"Were you aware that cave experts were brought in to view the videotape he released after 9-11 in an attempt to determine exactly what cave he was in? "

Doesn't wash-- he could just hang a sheet behind him and sit there while he talked. But, your point about his likely changed appearance is certainly valid.

Personally, I think he's dead, but it occurs to me that if he's alive, he doesn't mind if WE'RE not sure if he's dead or alive so long as his followers believe he's alive, which they do. And, I think the CIA saying stuff like it's "likely" that the tape is authentic is just hooey-- they can't prove it one way or another, and the American & western press WANTS to believe he's alive, so what the heck? Doesn't change the policies of our government one way or another, so might as well let them.

After a certain number of years with no verified sightings and no audio-tape, pretty much everyone will assume he's dead anyway.

[INSENSITIVE GUY]

We would all be better off if these tapes were reported as "FAKES" so as to put doubt in the minds of terrorists as well as to make their situation seem hopeless.

[Ditter]

I didn't think Saddam was dead. I thought he was on the Rivera or someplace in the South Pacific with his billions of dollars. I never dreamed he was still in Iraq scurrying around in a beat up old taxi & living in holes in the ground. What a moron!

[#3Fan]

There were hundreds of posts claiming that we got him in the decapitation attack prior the start of ground action. Then again when we bombed that Baghdad suburb.

Yeah, during the war. But I think after the war it was pretty clear he was alive. I didn't see many at all saying that he was dead after the end of heavy operations.

[#3Fan]

I read every post on all those threads you posted and I only saw a couple people per thread claiming Saddam was dead. Plus all those threads were short, some extremely short. Blink and you would've missed them considering the volume of posts on FR per day. So I wouldn't say there was a big movement on the part of a lot of Freepers to claim Saddam was dead. You exaggerated.