BAM IRAN: A rabbi's provocative point of view [Does G-d dispatch disasters to nonChristian nations?]

Chicago Jewish News ^ | 1-7-04 | Rabbi Daniel Lapin

[nuconvert]

Yesss....and that aside, why is he bringing religion into it? To be provacative? Did he see any of the pictures of the people in Bam helping each other bury their dead? Helping each other search for their loved ones? Maybe the fact that 1/4 to 1/3 of the people there were killed,and thousands more injured had something to do with the reason they needed help? And maybe it's because their government is screwed-up, not the people themselves, that they needed so much outside help? Is he separating the people from their society? The society from the government?

[nuconvert]

Got to go along with Elmer Fudd

[SJackson]

Yesss....and that aside, why is he bringing religion into it? To be provacative? Did he see any of the pictures of the people in Bam helping each other bury their dead? Helping each other search for their loved ones? Maybe the fact that 1/4 to 1/3 of the people there were killed,and thousands more injured had something to do with the reason they needed help? And maybe it's because their government is screwed-up, not the people themselves, that they needed so much outside help? Is he separating the people from their society? The society from the government?

The author answers that. Government is not detached from the people nor their society, rather frequently a reflection of it.

What dramatically changes the consequences of natural events such as earthquakes or storms is how a particular society is organized. And this is where the religious culture of the people seems to make a huge difference

Western societies originally shaped by Judeo-Christian values enjoy an enormous advantage in this area. Unlike most of the world's other religions, many of which stress fatalism over faith, both Judaism and Christianity, each with its utterly distinctive theology, impart a framework of faith to its adherents. Other cultures believe they please their god by submissively accepting his wishes. But societies sculpted by Biblical ideas have faith that tomorrow can, and must be improved, and that it is morally worthy to bring about that improvement. That is why non-Christian countries endure repeated earthquakes and repeated storms yet do little to reduce the successive impact while countries rooted in Christianity invest massively in seawalls, dykes, and other protective infrastructures and preventive measures.

udaism and Christianity teach that with faith and action we can change tomorrow. Furthermore, if doing so can save even one life, we are indeed obligated to denounce fatalism and act decisively. Uniquely, Biblical civilization teaches a distinctive emphasis on the value of even one human life. Ancient Jewish tradition teaches that all of humanity is descended from only one man, Adam, in order to stress that saving even one life is equivalent to saving the entire world's population. Abraham's ill-fated attempt to save the city of Sodom by arguing with G-d is another example of this oft-repeated sentiment exceedingly rare in other religions. Not surprisingly, suicide murderers are found more frequently in non- Biblical civilizations that profess less value in human life. Not surprisingly, the countries with embedded Judeo-Christian foundations cope more successfully with natural disaster.

[King Prout]

I do not believe that "separating the people from their culture... government (and history)" is a valid argument.
Each grows from the others, the fruits of one show the soil quality of the rest.

[Blue_Ridge_Mtn_Geek]

1755 Lisbon earthquake
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1755_Lisbon_earthquake
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

The 1755 Lisbon earthquake took place on November 1, 1755 at 9:20 in the morning. It was one of the most destructive and deadly earthquakes in history and had a strong impact in the 18th century society. Modern geologists estimate that the Lisbon earthquake approached magnitude 9 on the Richter scale.

Table of contents
1 The earthquake
2 The day after
3 Social implications
4 The birth of seismology

The earthquake

The earthquake struck in early morning of November 1, the All Saints Day Catholic holiday. Contemporary reports state that the earthquake lasted for three-and-a-half minutes, causing gigantic fissures five meters wide to rip apart the city centre. The survivors rushed to the open space of the docks for safety and watched as the water receded, revealing the sea floor, littered by lost cargo and old shipwrecks. Moments later an enormous tsunami engulfed the harbour, and the city downtown. In the areas unaffected by the tidal wave, fire quickly broke out, and flames raged for five days.

Lisbon was not the only Portuguese city affected by the catastrophe. All the South of the country, namely Algarve was affected and destruction was generalized. The shockwaves of the earthquake were felt throughout Europe and North Africa. Tsunamis up to twenty meters in height swept the coast from North Africa to Finland and across the Atlantic to Martinique and Barbados.

Of a population of 275,000, about 90,000 were killed. Another 10,000 were killed across the Mediterranean in Morocco. Eighty-five percent of Lisbon's buildings were destroyed, including its famous palaces and libraries. Several buildings which had suffered little damage due to the earthquake were destroyed by the fire. The brand new Opera House, opened only six months before, was burned to the ground. The Royal Palace stood just beside the Tagus river in the modern square of Terreiro do Paço, and was destroyed by the earthquake and the tsunami. Inside, the 70,000-volume library and hundreds of works of art, including paintings by Titian, Rubens, and Correggio, were lost. The precious royal archives concerning the exploration of the Atlantic and old documents also disappeared. The earthquake destroyed also the major churches of Lisbon, namely the Cathedral of Santa Maria, and the Basilicas of São Paulo, Santa Catarina, São Vincente de Fora, and the Misericordia. The ruins of the Carmo convent can still be visited today in the centre of the city. The Royal Hospital of All-Saints was consumed by fire and hundreds of patients burned to death.

The day after

Due to a strike of luck, the royal family escaped unharmed from the catastrophe. King Joseph I of Portugal and the court had left the city, after attending mass at sunrise. The reason was the will of one of the princesses to have a holy day away from the city. The king was very fond of his four daughters and decided to oblige her wishes. After the catastrophe, Joseph I developed a fear of living within walls, and the court was accommodated in a huge complex of tents and pavilions in the hills of Ajuda, then in the outskirts of Lisbon.

Like the king, the prime minister Sebastião de Melo (the Marquis of Pombal) survived the earthquake. With the pragmatism that characterized his rule, the prime minister immediately started to organize the reconstruction. He was not paralysed with shock and is reported to have answered: Now? We bury the dead and take care of the living. His quick response put fire-fighters in the city and teams to remove the thousands of corpses. Thanks to this, no major epidemic followed the earthquake.

As for the city itself, the prime minister and the king hired architects and engineers and less than a year later, Lisbon was already free from the debris and being reconstructed. The king was keen in having a new, perfectly ordained city. Big squares and rectilinear, large avenues were the mottos of the new Lisbon. At the time, somebody asked the Marquis of Pombal what was the need of such wide streets. The Marquis answered: one day they will be small... And indeed, the chaotic traffic of Lisbon reflects the wisdom of the reply.

The new downtown, known nowadays as the Pombaline Downtown, is one of Lisbon's attractions. These buildings are also among the first seismic protected constructions in the world. Small wooden models were built for testing and the earthquake was simulated by marching troops around them.

Social implications

The earthquake shook a lot more than a city and its buildings. Lisbon was the capital of a devout catholic country, with a history of investments in the church and evangelisation of the colonies. Moreover, the catastrophe struck in a catholic holiday and destroyed every important church. For the religious minds of the 18th century, this manifestation of the anger of God was difficult to explain. In the following days, priests roamed the city hanging people suspected of heresy on site, blaming them for the disaster. Many contemporary writers, such as Voltaire, mentioned the earthquake on their writings. The Lisbon earthquake made many people wonder about the existence of a God who permitted these events to happen.

In the internal politics, the earthquake was also devastating. The prime minister was the favourite of the king, but the high nobility despised him as an up-start. The feelings were returned and a constant struggle for power and royal favour was taking place. After November 1, the competent response of the Marquis of Pombal severed the power of the aristocratic faction. Conflicts were constant and silent opposition to king Joseph I started to rise. This would end in an attempted murder of the king and the elimination of the powerful Tavora family. See Tavora affair for the whole account.

The birth of seismology

The competent action of the prime minister was not limited to the practicalities of the reconstruction. The Marquis ordered a query to be sent to all parishes of the country, regarding the earthquake and its effects. Questions included:

* how long did the earthquake last?
* how many aftershocks were felt?
* what kind of damage was caused?
* did animals behave strangely? (this question may sound strange but it anticipated studies by Chinese seismologists in the 1960s)
* what happened in the water holes?, and many others

The answers are still archived in the Tower of Tombo, the national historical archive. Studying and cross-referencing the priests accounts, modern scientists were able to reconstruct the event in a scientific perspective. Without the query designed by the Marquis of Pombal, the first attempt of a seismological, objective description, this would be impossible. This is why the Marquis is regarded as the precursor of seismological sciences.

The geological causes of this earthquake and the seismic activity in the region of Lisbon are still being discussed by modern scientists. Since Lisbon is located in a centre of a tectonic plate, there is not a obvious reason for the event. Portuguese geologists have suggested that the earthquake is related with the first steps of development of an atlantic subduction zone.

Note: Despite the fact that the prime minister Sebastião de Melo is mentioned here as Marquis of Pombal, the title was only granted in 1779.

[nuconvert]

"Government is not detached from the people nor their society, rather frequently a reflection of it. "

My argument exactly. In Iran, for example,the government is NOT a reflection of the people. It does NOT represent the people.

"...Bam, it is a forlorn hope to get millions of peasants to act in unison and entrust their gold to a capital market. Their religion has produced a culture that encourages greater trust in mattresses than in banks. Theirs is also a culture of fatalism rather than of faith. Thus when the monsoon or earthquake strikes, it is each man alone against the forces of nature."

I'm sorry, but these are not true statements. The reason is because they have an oppressive government. And as I said already, apparently this man didn't see the pictures of the Iranian people helping each other. Or doesn't want to bring it up because it doesn't fit into his theory.
Maybe he needs to look at the difference between the lives of Iranians now, and their lives under the Shah? It's not the people's religion that changed in the past 25 yrs, it's the leader.

[nuconvert]

"I do not believe that "separating the people from their culture... government (and history)" is a valid argument."

It IS when the government is so repressive and suffocating, that the people can't make decisions for themselves, in fact, can't practice their religion and can't break out from the hold that the government has on them.
Look at the situation in N.Korea.
The people are starving to death there, and dying from the cold due to lack of electricity, fuel, etc. The people are FORCED to live in intolerable conditions. They can't as individuals go out and start building safe homes. They are Forced to live in unsafe conditions because of their government. Not because of their religious beliefs.

[King Prout]

the government sprang from the soil of the people, the culture, and the history.
you cannot separate the one from the others.

[solitas]

Exactly. The homes in Bam were created out of material that would turn to dust at the slightest quake and also were so close together. People were literally buried alive in their own homes. Alot of buildings in California are made to withstand earthquakes. These people aren't thinking logically when they say things like that.

So, then, to make everybody equal, should Californians start making all their future buildings out of mud bricks to achieve parity of technology and safety with the underdeveloped earthquake-ridden zones in the world? Sounds like a democrat-think to me... < /absurdity>

[nuconvert]

You HAve to separate them in some cases. Not every country's situation is a linear progression as ours is.
Otherwise you're faulting people who may have totally different beliefs now, from the people who got them into the situation in the first place. That's one of the problems with the author's theory. He doesn't allow for changes to have taken place. And his theory doesn't explain the Christian countries in S. America, as elmer fudd stated in his reply.

[King Prout]

the culture in central and south america sucks, irrespective of their catholicism. true.

try a little exercise if you wish to see the author's point: go back in the history of the west to... AD33. Subtract christianity from all further progression of events. what do you end up with: wealthy liberal democracies or impoverished banana republics?

[John H K]

Uh, No. The difference is technological, and one of better planning.

Uh, No, the PRIMARY difference is pure dumb luck. The California quake was NOT directly under a city of 50,000+ people.

Pure and simple. And it appears the Bam Quake may well have been a 6.8, which is over twice as powerful and destructive as a 6.5.

[nuconvert]

Subtract Christianity? I don't think this exercise is possible to do and come out with an accurate conclusion.
There's no way of knowing what other wars might have occurred between religions, or whether people would have migrated to escape religious persecusion,etc. There are too many variables to project an outcome.

But the central and south America examples alone, shoot
down his theory.