Late Neanderthals 'more like us'

BBC ^ | 12-24-93 | Paul Rincon

[DeepDish]

It looks like they may have been more closely related than a lot of people want to admit. Still it is a very thin argument.

[baltodog]

I choose to believe that I am a desendant of Adam And Eve.
How? Why? I can't explain. Faith.
If people want to look at a monkey and think that they are somehow related, OK by me.
Please rest assured, though, there is no monkey blood in Baltodog.

[putupon]

[VRW Conspirator]

I am a son of Cain!

If you want to have fun, just ask an athiest if animals have the same rights that we do; then ask at what stage of evolution did Man get more rights than the rest of the animals. Snap Crackle Pop

[DeepDish]

On this day I will not twit people about religion. I avoid doing that generally, but avoid the topic at Christmas, which is why I make the disclaimer. That said, the article is not about monkeys.

[Ahban]

Not sure how we can turn this into a rumble, just thought you would be interested.

[greenwolf]

The comparison skeletons I've seen don't make neanderthals look that much tougher or badder than we are. Put Rocky Marciano up against the baddest neanderthal of all time, and my money's on Rocky.

[B0rat]

This appears to be a Science thread, not a Religious one. I suggest you go find a thread about the trinity or something and leave this gibberish about monkeys, Adam, Eve, pinchme, and who ever else somewhere else.

[Jack Black]

Neanderthals are not monkeys. Not even close. No tails, human like hands, the ability to make stone tools, cave art, etc. Have you ever studied evolution at all? How do you explain these remains, found over a large part of the world. On second thought, forget it. I've read all the twisted pseudo-science from "creation science" defenders that I ever want to.

[CWOJackson]

That would explain pat buchanan.

[Michael_Michaelangelo]

This sounds like a work of fiction to me. Gather a few bones and write a paper. And don't forget to toss-in "evolution" a few times to make it sound important.
Here you have a member of a nomadic tribe, minding his own business and trying to survive in a drastically changed climate as a result of a cataclysmic event. He dies, probably of illness or old age, and these scientists just won't leave his bones alone. Can't a man rest in peace?

[ASA Vet]

Animals have no "rights."

A people have only those "rights" which they will forcefully demand.
The people of our nation are slowly giving up "rights" because they fail to understand that.

It isn't brain surgery nor is it supernatural.

[alloysteel]

Once in a while you see a throw-back that reverts to the anscestral type. In some families, this recurs more often than others.

Fortunately, these examples are of low fertility, and lack the necessary drive to achieve sufficient stature to become serious breeding stock.

[baltodog]

Now you're starting to sound like my wife -- she thinks I should be finishing the floor in the attic...
But you guys are much more fun!

[DeepDish]

Mot of the pictures I see of the estimated looks of neanderthals convince me that they would be unremarkable in a dim saloon.

[DeepDish]

"That would explain pat buchanan."

LOL And Ted Kennedy's fondness for Barney costumes. Some kind of ancestral memory thing I guess.

[null and void]

ping

[Prodigal Son]

Whole article:

Neanderthals were shedding their sturdy physique and evolving in the direction of modern humans just before they disappeared from the fossil record.
Newly-identified remains from Vindija in Croatia, which date to between 42,000 and 28,000 years ago, are more delicate than "classic" Neanderthals.

One controversial explanation is that these Neanderthals were interbreeding with modern humans in the region.

Details of the research appear in the Journal of Human Evolution.

Excavations also reveal the Vindija Neanderthals were developing advanced ways of making stone tools that mirror innovations elsewhere by modern humans (Homo sapiens).

Researchers have pieced together a partial Neanderthal (Homo neanderthalensis) skull from fragments found mixed in with animal bones from the site.

Signs of interbreeding

The skull comes from ground layers dating to between 42,000 and 38,000 years ago. The researchers also found other fragments of Neanderthal bone from later ground layers in the cave.

Analysis of this cranium appears to confirm suggestions from earlier finds at Vindija that the Neanderthals there were evolving a more "gracile" anatomy - less sturdy than classic big-boned Neanderthals.

The skull's supraorbital torus - an arching, bony ridge above the eyes - is not as thick and projecting as in other Neanderthal remains. The specimen also has a higher braincase than is typical in Neanderthals.

Co-author Ivor Jankovic of the Institute for Anthropological Research in Zagreb, Croatia, told BBC News Online:

"You know, the Vindija material is interesting because it is more gracile than classic Neanderthals.

"It suggests some contact between Neanderthals and modern humans but we don't know yet whether there was some interbreeding."

Fierce debate

The suggestion that Neanderthals interbred with modern humans is highly controversial. Many researchers believe they did not contribute genes to present-day populations.

Most researchers now believe that our own species evolved in Africa and then swept across Europe, replacing the Neanderthals - the so-called "Out of Africa" model.

Comparisons of mitochondrial DNA from Neanderthals and modern humans have failed to reveal any signs of mixing between the two populations.

But Dr James Ahern of the University of Wyoming, lead scientist in the latest study, thinks the replacement of Neanderthals by modern humans was not a simple process.

"There was a far more complex dynamic going on between 20,000 and 29,000 years ago than some people think.

"I'm sure that there were some things post-Neanderthal populations assimilated from their predecessors, certainly in the biological sense," Dr Ahern told BBC News Online.

Remains of early modern humans from Central Europe often display Neanderthal traits, say the researchers. But these features are no longer as common in present-day European populations.

Neanderthals began to evolve in Europe around 230,000 years ago and dominated the continent until around 35,000 years ago when people with a more modern anatomy entered the continent.

They were proficient hunters and well-adapted to an Ice Age climate. But their distinctive anatomy has led researchers to classify them as a separate species from us.

The Vindija cranium predates the first recorded presence of modern humans in Europe by around 5,000 years.

Common direction

Dr Ahern thinks this suggests that Neanderthals and modern humans in Africa were evolving in the same direction in response to common environmental pressures.

"They were evolving in the same way because they were part of a larger human species. Neanderthals just didn't change as rapidly as some of the other people," he explained.

These pressures may have been rooted in sharp changes in the global climate.

The evolution of a modern, or slight, physique by humans in Africa is thought to coincide with an emphasis on cultural and technological ways of dealing with everyday tasks that earlier people - including the Neanderthals - solved with brute force.

Innovations believed to coincide with the appearance of modern human anatomy include hunting with bows and arrows and the use of harpoons for fishing.

Dr Ivor Karavanic of the University of Zagreb found that around 38,000 years ago, Neanderthals began making more use of the mineral chert for stone tools.

Chert is a superior material to the quartz that Neanderthals at the site had previously used.

This behaviour mirrors cultural changes taking place at the same time in modern human populations and may indicate more advanced thinking.

[nightdriver]

"How do you explain these remains, found over a large part of the world."

Some of the emanations from the "creation science" people make me cringe too, no matter how well-meaining they might be.

How to explain these remains?

I dunno, but I do know that the Bible does hint that man existed long before Adam and that he and his "civilization" was wiped out completely by the Lord Himself.

It might be an answer as to why the reconstituted DNA of some of these ancient preserved bodies is reported to be totally different from ours - we are not their descendents.

[tpaine]

If you want to have fun, just ask a religious zealot if animals have the same rights that we do; then ask at what stage of evolution did Man get more rights than the rest of the animals.

Snap Crackle Pop goes the monkey.