Cardinal Says U.S. Treated Saddam 'Like a Cow'

Yahoo! News / Reuters ^ | 12-16-2003 | Philip Pullella

[dsc]

It's going on 2:30 a.m. here, so I'm going to turn in. Before I do...

"I probably know more about what the RC church really believes than most RC's that I know."

If every Roman Catholic is telling you that they don't believe what you say they do, how could you possibly be right about that? As I said, you have some misconceptions about what the Church teaches, and you simply refuse to be disabused of them.

"Your problem with me"

I don't have a problem with you. I'm just debating some points of theology here.

"you don't like how I state it."

It's not a question of like or dislike; it's just that you don't understand it correctly.

"If you knew my history on FR you might not just dismiss me as "ignorant".

I have not dismissed you, and I have neither called you ignorant nor implied it.

I hope you'll give some thought to the things everybody has talked about tonight. You know, it just could be that we believe what we say we believe.

Well, it's after 2:30 now, and I have to be up at 9, so, good night.

[BlackElk]

Our RCC in the person of each pope enjoys the promised and special protection of Jesus Christ. He keeps His promises. These popes are sinners as you and I are sinners. they are not impeccable. Those popes are, under stated conditions, infallible.

We have any number of dam*ed fools and idjits as laity, priests, bishops, archbishops and cardinals. St. John Crysostom observed a millenium ago that the floors of hell are paved with the skulls of bishops. Among the twelve that Christ chose were Peter. Thomas and Judas, whose shortcomings are well-documented in Scripture. This is nothing new.

Scripture is infallible but you would be hard-pressed to prove it by the wide variety of personal interpretations applied by the thousands of "reformed" denominations, squabbling over the meaning of this verse or that.

[OLD REGGIE]

It actually means (give or take a verb or two) "Where Peter is, there is the Church"

Actually, it is pronounced "Peta" in Massachusetts.

[Iowegian]

I have not dismissed you, and I have neither called you ignorant nor implied it.

Of course you did. You posted that I don't know what the RC church teaches (paraphrasing). Not knowing is "ignorance". You are stating something that you are assuming, but don't know.

[Iowegian]

Yes I've heard all these same tired arguments before, it's just bluster. It amounts to: "we are always right because we were told we are always right". It's faith in action, but it doesn't prove a thing.

[BlackElk]

Well, thank God that the the Truth that is Catholicism is not so flimsily supported as to depend on my authority. Instead it rests on the authority of Jesus Christ. See the Peter passage in Matthew. His authrity is good enough for me, to say the least. His authority ought to be good enough for you too. YOPIOS is no substitute for your Savior and mine.

[OLD REGGIE]

Furthermore, Dallas settled a lawsuit ten years or so ago, but the mass media in this country didn't feel any need to really cover it. It was only in Boston that the media started waking up.

And there was the massive 1992 Father Porter scandal in Boston. The news lost legs for another 10 years.

I wonder where the Catholic press was all this time.

Why do you suppose it took the hated "Anti-Catholic" secular press to really get the ball rolling?

[Quester]

It is spiritual riches beyond the imaginings of those who have not been to that well. By comparison, and I say this as one who was raised a protestant and only became Catholic in his late forties, protestants are impoverished, subsisting on a few crumbs fallen from the banquet table.

If you stand today's average Protestant against today's average Catholic, ... I don't believe that it's the Protestant who will look spiritually impoverished.

"For most Americans, going to religious services means going to church, since 83 percent of adults in this country are Christians. Forty-six percent of Protestants attend church at least weekly, peaking at 52 percent of Baptists. Just over two-thirds of Baptists are in the South, far more than elsewhere (the Midwest is next, at just 17 percent). That's one reason church attendance in the South is higher than elsewhere.

Fewer Catholics, 38 percent, report attending church on at least a weekly basis. Men are the reason: As noted, 26 percent of Catholic men say they attend church that regularly, compared to 42 percent of Protestant men. There's no such difference between Protestant and Catholic women — about half in each group say they go to church at least once a week.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/church_poll020301.html

[OLD REGGIE]

Last but not least, we recognize that this effort may take time. You will recall that the Assumption, accomplished in roughly 50AD, was only solemnly proclaimed 1900 years later.

Most of the New Testament was still beimng written at that time. Chapter and Verse?

[BlackElk]

We individuals are fallible. Christ's Vicar on earth is not, within the stated limitations.

You don't believe. That is not a first in history.

When, in the Gospel of John, Jesus Christ told his disciples that they must eat His Flesh and drink His Blood to see God, many found it a hard saying and walked away (despite the fact that those walking away were in His Presence and acquainted with Him). Many still walk away from Him, as you know. Some level criticism at Him or His Church for the fact that they have left Him and the Church.

Catholics KNOW that we have the fullness of the Truth as no other Church does (save Eastern Orthodoxy?). If you disagree, you regard that as heresy, or as arrogance or as fantasy or whatever. You would be wrong. If you agree with that fullness of the Truth, you would be obligated to be Catholic. You are not Catholic. Nonetheless, your subjective disagreement with Catholicism based upon YOPIOS or whatever does not undermine or overcome the objective Truth of Catholicism.

[ninenot]

Neither SD, nor BE, nor I will EVER acknowledge that the Church is fallible. She is not, was not, and never will be so.

However, ALL of us will acknowledge that INDIVIDUALS within said Church are fallible--I will accept that I lead in that category between the three of us.

OTOH, what do you care?

[ninenot]

We are enjoined by the scriptures to love our neighbor, and to be merciful, charitable, and generous. That is the basis for those things, not justice.

It is your understanding of the terms which is an error...

It is impossible for mercy, charity, and generosity to contradict justice, for all virtues are united in God.

The fact that 'justice' is often viewed solely as retribution should not cloud your understanding of the term.

It is our problem to achieve the wisdom necessary by which we see 'justice' as another facet of charity, mercy, and generosity.

[ninenot]

Perhaps. As I recall, Mt., Mk., and Lk. were finished by 50AD. Dunno about the various Epistles. Jn. MAY have been finished by 50AD, but it could have been later.

The Assumption was not mentioned in the NT because the OT and NT contain only the revelations necessary for our salvation. The Assumption, while a fact (infallibly proclaimed---perhaps by virtue of oral tradition's persistence and credibility) is not a fact necessary for one's salvation.

[SoothingDave]

Changing the power structure seems to be a better solution, or maybe a good start would be to acknowledge that your church can be fallible.

Why would a leopard deny his spots?

Arrogance (Pride) is a sin you know.

BE took a paragraph or two. I'll be pithy: It ain't bragging if you can do it.

SD

[SoothingDave]

Actually, it is pronounced "Peta" in Massachusetts.

Yes, I am aware. I've seen "The Family Guy," though it is technically set in Rhode Island.

SD

[SoothingDave]

I wonder where the Catholic press was all this time.

If everybody read the Wanderer, things would be different.

SD

[Iowegian]

Just more arrogant bluster. You do it so well though, you have a lot of practice.

[SoothingDave]

If you stand today's average Protestant against today's average Catholic, ... I don't believe that it's the Protestant who will look spiritually impoverished.

Oranges and lemons. He was not speaking of anything as pedestrian as mere church attendence. Those attending Protestant Churches are, in general, not being given the fullness of Truth and are not being fed sacramentally either. They present a piece as if it were the whole Enchilada. Nay, as if it were the entire banquet.

SD

[Iowegian]

BE took a paragraph or two. I'll be pithy: It ain't bragging if you can do it.

Saying it (or typing it) doesn't make it so. It's still amounts to: "we are right because we say we are right". It might satisfy you, but it proves nothing.

[SoothingDave]

Saying it (or typing it) doesn't make it so.

Of course not. I didn't postulate that my saying something, any normal human saying anything makes it so. Jesus said it.

It's still amounts to: "we are right because we say we are right". It might satisfy you, but it proves nothing.

Again, Jesus said it. It is so. Whether your standard of "proof" is met or not, it remains so. Jesus started a Church and He has made sure she does not fail. How glorious is the Lord to not leave us to wallow in error and uncertainty, as you imagine He has done!

SD