Lt. Col. West docked 2 month's pay

WND ^ | December 12, 2003 | Art Moore

[Alamo-Girl]

Thanks for the ping!

[jackbill]

I am not debating that Lt. Col. West did anything I might not have done under similar circumstances. My point is that he knew it was wrong when he did it.

I'm sure he would do it again to protect his troops.

Apparently someone in his unit thought so, someone ratted on him.

Col. West "ratted" himself out. Virtually immediately after his actions, he reported exactly what he had done to his superiors. Several weeks later, some desk-bound JAG a$$hole decided to try for a career enhancement and processed charges.

Don't even try to give me this "someone in his unit ratted him out". Doesn't fly with me, or, apparently, with people in his unit.

[Yasotay]

As I said this was the BEST option for this ugly situation ....for many reasons.

1) LTC West HAD TO ACCEPT the Article 15, OR DEMAND a Courts-Martial!

2) This situation was a CATCH22, you are damned if you do and you are damned if you don't. Article 99 - "Misbehavior Before the Enemy" could have been used against him had he FAILED to stop the attack.

Typically classes on interrogation would NOT be taught at the Officer Basic or Advanced Course(s). It might be taught to MI enlisted and officers, BUT LTC West was an FA officer, his training would have been limited to processing of PWs to the MPs.

Finally, most aspects of a military person's life is not regulated by the UCMJ but other Regulations. The UCMJ actually is only the Manual for Courts-Martial and it leaves alot out but has a 'catch-all' Article 134.

[ridesthemiles]

I'm in for 10. Where do I send it? please advise privately, thx.

[archy]

Do you want any of the Vet Groups and Legion Units in my Commander's book for OKLA and TEX for this turn out?

How about I freep mail you my Commander's email and you can add him to your contact list for OK and TX?

Sounds good. Or so far as that goes, we can both contact them, less chance of anything being overlooked that way.

I've got a pretty good list of contacts in Texas, having lived there, less so in OK. I suspect the idea the military has is to slip LTC WEst back home during the Christmas season, when everyone will be otherwise occupied and generally busy with other seasonal activities to offer much personal support to him. I'll settle for that if it gets him back in time to enjoy the season with his family; but I bet the powers that be find the coming New Year a whole lot less enjoyable....

-archy-/-

[archy]

Col. West "ratted" himself out. Virtually immediately after his actions, he reported exactly what he had done to his superiors. Several weeks later, some desk-bound JAG a$$hole decided to try for a career enhancement and processed charges.

Don't even try to give me this "someone in his unit ratted him out". Doesn't fly with me, or, apparently, with people in his unit.

It's not that he nor anyone else in his unit *ratted him out*. It's that females ineligible to serve in combat roles who failed to get the information needed for the safety of LTC West and his unit were humiliated, and more senior women in the chain of command wanted West made an example of for political reasons.

Like a lot of folks have said, the whole story isn't out yet. Wait until Col. West can hang up his uniform, and cant be ordered to keep quiet about all the details, as he has been now.

You don't have long to wait.

-archy-/-

[Jeff Head]

Grampa Dave, thanks for the ping. This is about the type of thing the LTC expected.

Blam, I've been around and around on this with the same folks on all of the threads.

I am glad LTC West is coming home, that he will get his full retirement and that he will have an honorable discharge to cap off an honorable career.

For all of the reasons I have already mentioned I believe LTC West did what he felt he had to do to accomplish his misison and minimize US loss while doing so. He iused his discretion and judgement in a time critical, combat situation and it panned out. For that he should be commended and not reprimanded.

Jeff

[Walkingfeather]

Standing by???.... why how dare you .... I would be holding the coats.

[archy]

As I have said several times, I admire the Lt. Col. for doing whatever necessary to protect his men but that doesn't make it hunky-dorie. He should have immediately came forward and told his superiors what happened. As I understand he didn't but someone else present reported the event.

I wonder where instruction is doled out on this type of interrogation.

The SERE courses and countermeasures and resistance to hostile interrogation courses we were given were a pretty good basic foundation, though presented from an opposite point of view.

But methods of getting anyone to talk, given enough time, were demonstrated to those of us in Armor, enlisted and officer alike. And on more than one E&E field training problem, I had officer tank commanders volunteer to go with me and my crew, figuring their chances of not being picked up by the forces arrayed against us were better than under their own steam. On six seperate occasions, I never got caught, and I had a similar policy regarding being taken POW for real.

-archy-/-

[Taxman]

This is the email I sent Col. West:

"Dear Colonel West,

IMHO, you should have been promoted Major General and given command of the Fourth Infantry Division!

Your leadership will be sorely missed.

Thank you for your service!

Sincerely,

Frank L. Davis, Jr.
Captain, USNR (Ret)"

[Pukin Dog]

Geneva Convention relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War
Adopted on 12 August 1949 by the Diplomatic Conference for the Establishment of International Conventions for the Protection of Victims of War,
held in Geneva from 21 April to 12 August, 1949 entry into force 21 October 1950

GENERAL PROTECTION OF PRISONERS OF WAR

Article 12

Prisoners of war are in the hands of the enemy Power, but not of the individuals or military units who have captured them. Irrespective of the individual responsibilities that may exist, the Detaining Power is responsible for the treatment given them.

Prisoners of war may only be transferred by the Detaining Power to a Power which is a party to the Convention and after the Detaining Power has satisfied itself of the willingness and ability of such transferee Power to apply the Convention. When prisoners of war are transferred under such circumstances, responsibility for the application of the Convention rests on the Power accepting them while they are in its custody.

Nevertheless if that Power fails to carry out the provisions of the Convention in any important respect, the Power by whom the prisoners of war were transferred shall, upon being notified by the Protecting Power, take effective measures to correct the situation or shall request the return of the prisoners of war. Such requests must be complied with.

Article 13

Prisoners of war must at all times be humanely treated. Any unlawful act or omission by the Detaining Power causing death or seriously endangering the health of a prisoner of war in its custody is prohibited, and will be regarded as a serious breach of the present Convention. In particular, no prisoner of war may be subjected to physical mutilation or to medical or scientific experiments of any kind which are not justified by the medical, dental or hospital treatment of the prisoner concerned and carried out in his interest.

Likewise, prisoners of war must at all times be protected, particularly against acts of violence or intimidation and against insults and public curiosity.

Measures of reprisal against prisoners of war are prohibited.

Article 14

Prisoners of war are entitled in all circumstances to respect for their persons and their honour. Women shall be treated with all the regard due to their sex and shall in all cases benefit by treatment as favourable as that granted to men. Prisoners of war shall retain the full civil capacity which they enjoyed at the time of their capture. The Detaining Power may not restrict the exercise, either within or without its own territory, of the rights such capacity confers except in so far as the captivity requires.

Article 15

The Power detaining prisoners of war shall be bound to provide free of charge for their maintenance and for the medical attention required by their state of health.

Article 16

Taking into consideration the provisions of the present Convention relating to rank and sex, and subject to any privileged treatment which may be accorded to them by reason of their state of health, age or professional qualifications, all prisoners of war shall be treated alike by the Detaining Power, without any adverse distinction based on race, nationality, religious belief or political opinions, or any other distinction founded on similar criteria.

It gets worse ever time I read one of these threads. Now you folks want to pay Col. West's bills for him? Oh my god. If there were a pill for perspective I would spike your drinks with it. If you sofa warriors really want to make a difference, why don't you visit this site and see what you can do to make a difference? I doubt many of you will, and that's fine I guess. I thought I was really finished with this subject, but I have to say that I'm really disappointed in many of you. Not that it matters much, but I thought we were defenders of law here, not people favoring expediency over the definition of right vs. wrong. You want to meet a hero? Click on the link and show the same kind of unbending support for a REAL HERO.

Enjoy your evening while some of the friends of Capt. Scott Spiecher marvel at how some Americans can defend the mistreatment of a prisoner, even while one of our own may have only the rules that Col. West broke between him and his very life. You make me sick.

[Action-America]

I'm in for 20.

Then, if we can get him as a speaker for a luncheon in Houston, after he retires, I'll gladly buy a plate.

LTC West is a true hero and deserves to be recognized as such.

 

[Ace the Biker]

you're absolutely right, he should have done the beating himself, why let the enlisted men have all the fun.

God am I glad that we don't have to depend on such lowlifes as you to defend our country. God bless LTC West and I will gladly donate to off set this stupid fine.

[sport]

If you feel unwelcome, you can always leave.

The door swings both ways.

[Lawgvr1955]

You've just given a prime example of ergo hoc, propter hoc.

Not being critical, but I believe that is "post hoc, ergo proctor hoc" for what its worth.. Literally, "after the fact, therefore because of the fact".

I have to show off that college education, or as I like to think of it, a party with a sixty thousand dollar cover charge.

[Yasotay]

I totally agree that Spiecher is a real hero .... IMHO far more then LTC West but in the spirit of Gitmo and our Arab allies who are doing the questioning .... that Iraqi police was not a PW. A spy is a much more accurate term and therefore he should have been shot .... West should have only formalized the charges against the spy :), have a nice weekend.

[I got the rope]

I'm in.

[SevenDaysInMay]

For a civilized world war, I could agree. Islamists are following their holy scriptures which define and dictate a total religious war which we have not seen for generations, if centuries.

To murder and die for Paradise is a retro-twist. Islamists hide among children and the injured because they know we handicap ourselves when they could not care less for worldly life.

"We can't handle the Truth."

Col. West is a man for our times, as a civilian. I hope he runs for high office and is elected because this nation needs a War Coucil during this peril with enemies foreign and domestic subverting our Ratified Constitutional Republic.

[archy]

Enjoy your evening while some of the friends of Capt. Scott Spiecher marvel at how some Americans can defend the mistreatment of a prisoner, even while one of our own may have only the rules that Col. West broke between him and his very life. You make me sick.

It's too bad Scott Spiecher didn't have any friends or superiors who'd have gone to any lengths, ANY, to get him back. But he didn't have, and the result was that noone will ever know where his body was dumped by the Iraqis deserving of such tender treatment. Maybe while they were killing them he was oh so grateful that his side plays games by the rules while the other side fights wars of annihilation.

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What do you think of Lt. Col. West's punishment?

He should have been awarded a medal instead	70.87% (360)

Heros shouldn't face penalties	13.78% (70)

Military wants to let him off but needed to send a message	8.07% (41)

It was a good compromise	3.74% (19)

Other	1.38% (7)

He should have gone to jail	0.98% (5)

He should have been court martialed	0.79% (4)

It was a slap on the wrist	0.20% (1)

The fine should have been higher	0.20% (1)

He deserves a dishonorable discharge	0.00% (0)

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[OldFriend]

We all live by our own set of values..........

My family has been defending you and yours for generations. All hold their head high and some were buried with honors.