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Bush Decides to Lift All Steel Tariffs
AP ^ | 12/04/03 | MARTIN CRUTSINGER

Posted on 12/04/2003 10:00:39 AM PST by Pikamax

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To: Faraday
Look, I know most individuals and constituencies support or oppose free trade out of relative short term economic considerations.

I'd be inclined to agree with that, if you were simply making a numerical assessment. But some of the more powerful constituencies in favor of this - and I'm referring to the left end of the spectrum - have longer-term goals in mind. The aforementioned Mr. Moore is an interesting case study. This particular address by him to the WTO Ministerial shows his nature. I recommend reading it if you have the spare time, but here I'll pull out a couple of noteworthy excerpts:

As President Clinton said, globalization is not a policy choice, it's a fact. Globalization is being driven above all by the power of technology - by faster and cheaper transportation, by new communications, by the increasing weightlessness of our economies - the financial services, telecommunications, entertainment, and e-commerce that make up a growing share of global trade....

The real question we should ask ourselves is whether globalization is best left unfettered - dominated by the strongest and most powerful, the rule of the jungle - or managed by an agreed system of international rules, ratified by sovereign governments.

What he's saying here (whether or not he chooses to admit it) is that the purpose of the WTO isn't to knock down trade barriers, since they've already been knocked down, but to "manage" the resultant situation. This of course is after he tells us that the WTO isn't anything like a government. His address is full of contradictions like that. Here's another:
Those who oppose and protest are not all bad or mad. Many want to improve the WTO. Others want to capture it to reflect their interests - which is a form of flattery I suppose. Most seek honest engagement. The World Wide Fund for Nature - to take just one example - has made several constructive suggestions about improving the interface between trade and the environment. We should listen, reflect, then act.
But of course, the WTO "has no intention of becoming a government." Right...

But that's the modus operandi of many of these globocrats: Swear up and down that you're not in favor of world government, and then go right on to describe your plans for world government. That's what makes it so difficult to make a case for many of these characters. If you simply glance over Moore's address, for example, it'll read like anything out of Hayek or Mises: increased trade reduces poverty, it leads to peace between nations, it opens up opportunities as never before - you know the drill. But sandwiched between all these innocent-sounding classical liberal sentiments, in random locations, are these stark contradictions like the ones I pointed out. It'd be like reading a chapter from Milton Friedman and seeing "workers of the world unite!" scribbled in between the lines in very small writing. Rather bizarre, but very effective.

61 posted on 12/04/2003 3:35:47 PM PST by inquest (Government: Guilty until proven innocent)
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To: Pikamax
It's going to take the EU 5-8 years to adjust to this new reality.
62 posted on 12/04/2003 3:37:36 PM PST by RightWhale (Close your tag lines)
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To: dead
Supply and demand realities can either be reflected in the cost of a good, or it can be reflected in the volume of that particular good that is sold at the offered price.

What? Reminds me of an old SNL commercial for a company that makes change for people. When asked how they make a profit doing it, the man replies, "volume". Volume merely multiplies per unit profit, which is what I thought we were talking about. In many cases, increased volume actually raises the price of manufacture, yet customers expect a volume discount. Again we have no connection between cost of production and price. Take a look at overstock.com. Tons of stuff sold at less than the price of manufacture, how is this possible in your world? How about CDs, which were supposed to get cheaper as production costs went down? Still $15 or more. How about blank DVD's? According to your theory, they should cost the same as blank CDs yet they are many times more expensive. The reality is that free trade benefits large corporations and multinationals. Consumers believe they are also beneficiaries because of the availability of cheap goods. But upon further inspection, consumers find they have less money to spend (because their jobs are gone), and the cheaper goods are actually of lesser quality. Zero sum game.

63 posted on 12/04/2003 4:10:28 PM PST by sixmil
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To: Pikamax
Good to hear.
64 posted on 12/04/2003 4:13:47 PM PST by k2blader (Haruspex, beware.)
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To: tpaine
The principle of free trade is simply that of the freedom to choose for yourself who you will associate with in productive ways, and how you will arrange those associations, without artificial government restrictions to limit those choices.

So, you don't support the embargo against Cuba? The government has no right to inspect cargo for weapons, drugs, disease, or illegal immigrants as it comes into the country and charge a reasonable duty? Let's go dig Paine out of his grave and see what he thinks.

65 posted on 12/04/2003 4:14:57 PM PST by sixmil
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To: mountaineer
Trouble is that there have been record numbers of autos sold for at least a year if not longer.

The price of autos is actually less expensive now than a decade ago.

66 posted on 12/04/2003 4:22:21 PM PST by OldFriend (DEMS INHABIT A PARALLEL UNIVERSE)
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To: sixmil
You read about as well as you understand economics.

I never once said that the cost of manufacture solely determines the price of an object.

In fact, I very clearly said exactly the opposite:

the cost of manufacturing is certainly a factor (though obviously not the only one) in pricing.

You stated that it has zero effect on the cost of an object:

Price is determined by supply and demand. Cost of manufacture has nothing to do with it.

If somebody can't make a profit, based on the amount a good sells over the cost of production, they will not continue to make that product.

Forget advanced economics. You haven't even grasped elementary economics, basic common sense, or even the English language.

BTW, "in my world" the cost of producing a movie or an album is part of the production costs of the tape, CD, or DVD. That's how those fancy actors and movie stars get paid. I don't know how things work in your bizarro world.

67 posted on 12/04/2003 4:27:07 PM PST by dead (I used to believe in a lot of things. All of it! Now I believe only in dynamite.)
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To: Pikamax
Facing the threat of a trade war, President Bush has decided to lift all tariffs he imposed on foreign steel 20 months ago...

*hit, we might as well declare the USA a provernce of France, surrender now to the EU and Red China and get it over with.

I hope the chains of economic slavery don't rest to heavy on the backs of our children and grandchildren who will curse the free traitors who sold them out.

68 posted on 12/04/2003 4:38:00 PM PST by Walkin Man
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To: sixmil
'The principle of free trade is simply that of the freedom to choose for yourself who you will associate with in productive ways, and how you will arrange those associations, without artificial government restrictions to limit those choices.'
-Galles remark on Paine's view.-

So, you don't support the embargo against Cuba?

'So', you admit you dont have a clue on the difference between an embargo & a tariff?

The government has no right to inspect cargo for weapons, drugs, disease, or illegal immigrants as it comes into the country and charge a reasonable duty? Let's go dig Paine out of his grave and see what he thinks.

Feel free, hotshot.

And next time you post, try to get straight who is taking what position, on which issue. You might avoid looking like a fool.

69 posted on 12/04/2003 4:47:55 PM PST by tpaine (I'm trying to be 'Mr Nice Guy', but FRs flying monkey squad brings out the Rickenbacker in me.)
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To: dead
You read about as well as you understand economics. I never once said that the cost of manufacture solely determines the price of an object.

Neither did I, but I am glad you qualified your statement. Even better would be to requalify everything else you believe that is based on that statement.

In fact, I very clearly said exactly the opposite: the cost of manufacturing is certainly a factor (though obviously not the only one) in pricing.

How much of a factor, care to qualify that statement as well?

You stated that it has zero effect on the cost of an object: Price is determined by supply and demand. Cost of manufacture has nothing to do with it.

Yes, that is what I said, and you can't seem to disprove it.

If somebody can't make a profit, based on the amount a good sells over the cost of production, they will not continue to make that product.

That's how it is supposed to work, yet many companies are willing to do just that in order to gain market share, sometimes even a monopoly. Is this good economics?

Forget advanced economics. You haven't even grasped elementary economics, basic common sense, or even the English language.

BTW, "in my world" the cost of producing a movie or an album is part of the production costs of the tape, CD, or DVD. That's how those fancy actors and movie stars get paid. I don't know how things work in your bizarro world.

Speaking of learning English, go back and read that I said BLANK DVD's.

Are you suggesting that, all things considered, the cost of producing a CD (with music on it) is the same as it was when CD's came out? I'd love to see that statement backed by fact. If the costs associated with producing a CD is fixed, then why don't they get cheaper as they go platinum? Are the greedy record companies not passing on the savings, or is it simply supply and demand?

70 posted on 12/04/2003 6:20:07 PM PST by sixmil
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To: tpaine
'So', you admit you dont have a clue on the difference between an embargo & a tariff?

No, but it sounds like Paine makes no distinction. Why do you?

Feel free, hotshot.

And next time you post, try to get straight who is taking what position, on which issue. You might avoid looking like a fool.

I wasn't having trouble distinguishing between you and Paine, but now I am having trouble understanding why you quoted someone you don't seem to agree with. Or is it Prof Galles you disagree with? You're not taking WillieG's side are you?

71 posted on 12/04/2003 6:39:44 PM PST by sixmil
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To: sixmil
At #59, I posted this:




Willie Green wrote:

It would be kinda fun to see what tpaine has to say on this issue.

______________________________________


I can agree with Galles remarks about Paines views:


"The principle of free trade is simply that of the freedom to choose for yourself who you will associate with in productive ways, and how you will arrange those associations, without artificial government restrictions to limit those choices. 
That principle is an essential, inalienable part of having ownership of oneself. 
Thomas Paine recognized this, and the same devotion to liberty which helped inspire America's revolution against tyranny in its many forms made him a defender of free trade.  And as he pointed out, "the principle of all commerce is the same." 
That is just as true, and just as important, now.
But few today echo Paine's passion for liberty, resulting in constant attempts, frequently successful, to use political means-i.e., coercion--to advance narrow interests by assailing others' rights to decide for themselves. 
So limits on the freedom to trade, as well as on other freedoms, persist and grow.
America would benefit from remembering what Thomas Paine warned of as "the greedy hand of government, thrusting itself into every corner and crevice of industry," at the behest of some against others.
  That is because it would be a return to the principle of liberty on which our nation was founded, from a situation in which many aspects of liberty have been shrunk or eliminated.  
And ultimately, the only real impediment to doing so is that too few of us still share Paine's conclusion that "Heaven knows how to put a proper price upon its goods; and it would be strange indeed, if so celestial an article as Freedom should not be highly rated." 
-----
Gary M. Galles is a professor of economics at Pepperdine University.
59 -tpaine-






Now you post asking me about why Paine & I make no distinction between a tariff & an embargo...
-- When you, and only you brought up the Cuban embargo. Why is it you imagine I quoted Paine about embargos when #59 has no mention of them?

You admit having "trouble understanding why you quoted someone you don't seem to agree with".
-- Anyone can see why.. You are fantasizing a quote that doesn't exist.

Get some help. Professional help.




72 posted on 12/04/2003 7:50:05 PM PST by tpaine (I'm trying to be 'Mr Nice Guy', but FRs flying monkey squad brings out the Rickenbacker in me.)
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To: mountaineer
There isn't $80 worth of steel in an American car anymore. It's all plastic.
73 posted on 12/05/2003 1:10:16 PM PST by Paul Ross (Reform Islam Now! -- Nuke Mecca!)
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