U.S. Programmers at Overseas Salaries

Businessweek ^ | 12/03/03 | David E. Gumpert

[RockyMtnMan]

I guess we are saying the same thing then.

The real problem is the waste of quality talent in America. Management tends to bulk everyone into the same talent pool when clearly there are those that add far more value than the average schmoe. Corporations need to do a better job of identifying the "real talent" and paying them according to their value rather than taking a hatchet to entire organizations simply because they were mismanaged and therefore underperform.

[William Terrell]

But on the negative side, America's standard of living would inevitably decline.

Uh. . .decline like the same programers making $0.00 per year?

[A. Pole]

In the longer term, no. If no one studies medicine, then salaries will rise until the demand for physicians is met.

You are talking about 20, 30 years. In the meantime the excellent medical schools and hospitals will be disbanded and you will never recover what was lost.

Such free market shock "therapy" applied to whole economy will bring America to the Third World level. And you do not have guaranty that there will a significant recovery. Argentina is an example. There is not God given promise that USA is immune from the permanent decline.

[stylin19a]

Great article.

I bet ALL the positions would get filled by Americans, willing to work @ that salary. Specially if one has been out of work for awhile.
IT jobs outsourced to India are already being outsourced from India to China. The Dilbert cartoon from a couple of months ago may come true.

[MineralMan]

"This makes sense to me. CS majors, especially technical programmer types, enjoyed inflated salaries from the 90s "new economy" boom that went bust. There was little doubt there would be a correction. My concern was there would be an overcorrection as a result of "technician dumping" from temporary visa programs and "outsourcing."


And then there's the other sort of outsourcing, on the lower end of the scale...things like customer support. While there have been some bad stories about offshore tech support, there are also some decent stories as well. For the customer, the bottom line is getting the answers to solve the problem.

Frankly, tech and customer support was lousy when it wasn't offshore. I recently got tech support for a product, and it was excellent, despite an Indian accent on the other end of the phone.

OTOH, I think I read recently that Dell was bringing customer support back onshore, so maybe the trend will reverse.

Bottom line here is that companies who want to keep their development business local can adjust salaries down and still attract workers. So, that's what will happen.

[lelio]

You don't think that creates an incentive to hire/retain quality physicians?

No, I think it creates an incentive to get out of the business.

[MineralMan]

"Management tends to bulk everyone into the same talent pool when clearly there are those that add far more value than the average schmoe. Corporations need to do a better job of identifying the "real talent" and paying them according to their value rather than taking a hatchet to entire organizations simply because they were mismanaged and therefore underperform."

Good corporate managers do just that. Trouble is...there aren't that many good corporate managers. All those MBAs and no brains.

[superloser]

My clients would whine about my prices every day.

But they still bought your product, right?

[Cacophonous]

The ultimate winner, just as the theory says, is the consumer...

And the ability of the consumer to purchase inexpensive goods is a terrible basis for a trade policy.

[1rudeboy]

In my last year on the job, approx. 13 million dollars' worth.

[RJS1950]

They jumped at it because 45K is better than the zip amount they get unemployed. Can't wait to see this same idea applied to plumbers, doctors, other repair people.

[MineralMan]

"They jumped at it because 45K is better than the zip amount they get unemployed. Can't wait to see this same idea applied to plumbers, doctors, other repair people."

Yeah, but there's a shortage of skilled plumbers, auto repair folks, etc. Plenty of jobs out there for folks with those skills.

[ARCADIA]

And the ability of the consumer to purchase inexpensive goods is a terrible basis for a trade policy.

As long as it works for daddy's little boy and his trust fund...

[ARCADIA]

Yeah, but there's a shortage of skilled plumbers, auto repair folks, etc. Plenty of jobs out there for folks with those skills.

That is because those jobs are still protected. You have to work for 5 years at sub-minimum wage to qualify for your journeyman's exam, and then a few more years to pull your master's license.

[Smogger]

Bingo! Only folks with a job think that no job is better than one at a lower pay scale than was once prevalent. Shoot, we've got so many out-of-work programmers since the collapse of the sofware market that you'd have no problem getting applicants at 40K a year.

Programming is like a lot of professions. Sure anyone can do it if they goto school etc, but they'll stick suck at it (ie inefficient crappy code and or slow) and stink up the place.

During the dot com bubble everybody and their brother started thinking they were "IT Professionals", when half these guys can't even fix their own computers. In my opinion IT and paticularly programming is something that you have to have the knack for in order to be any good. Either you got it or you don't. I have been writing software since I was in 6th grade, and I am 30 now, and I have worked with plenty of programmers who, frankly, just aren't any good. A college degree in CS means little. I have a High School diploma and I have worked all through this recessionette. The really good ones all still have jobs. Do you know why? Cause they make their employer's lots of $$$.

Always remember hardwork and dedication are no subsituted for talent and luck. ;-)

[Smogger]

Bottom line was that the best four of the applicants I interviewed and tested were crappy programmers. None could type worth a darn and spent most of their time fixing typos in the code. None had any creativity in creating this simple test application. I examined the code each had produced and it was the sloppiest nonsense I had ever seen.

This is what the IT bubble has wrought us. A gaggle of whiners with CS and Information System degrees that can't fix their own computer's, and can't program for shit. Now I gotta here everyday how there are millions of programmers out of work. Well I got news for you. Most of those guys sucked anyway, and they probably WOULD have been lawyers except they are greedy and thought IT was the way to make a "fast buck"

[MineralMan]

"That is because those jobs are still protected. You have to work for 5 years at sub-minimum wage to qualify for your journeyman's exam, and then a few more years to pull your master's license.
"

As opposed to spending 4-5 years as a Computer Science major, running up a big student loan debt? I fail to see the difference, frankly.

At least the apprentice trade worker is earning something while learning, and knows there's going to be work somewhere for a journeyman.

Even if building slows down in one area, you can move to another. Lots of construction trade folks moved to Vegas a few years ago. Lots of construction there.

Programmers don't have that option, these days. The jobs are just plain gone, partly due to offshore outsourcing and partly due to the collapse of the industry. You remember that...back in the late 90s?

[Smogger]

"Management tends to bulk everyone into the same talent pool when clearly there are those that add far more value than the average schmoe. Corporations need to do a better job of identifying the "real talent" and paying them according to their value rather than taking a hatchet to entire organizations simply because they were mismanaged and therefore underperform."

That's why you work for a SMALL company. Big companies are full of evil MBA MORON'S. The President of my company is right down the hall. He knows myself, and the rest of our tiny IT staff of three makes him $$$ and he breaks us off accordingly: around six figures with salary and bonuses. I'll NEVER work for a large company. Ever. They treat people like dirt and their management can't identify the REAL TALENT. I'll just go to work for myself.

As for the big companies we compete and work with. All I can say is that the Peter Principle is alive and well.

[MineralMan]

"That's why you work for a SMALL company. "

Very good advice!

[MineralMan]

"This is what the IT bubble has wrought us. A gaggle of whiners with CS and Information System degrees that can't fix their own computer's, and can't program for shit. "

You're right there. I've met a lot of "programmers" who couldn't figure out anything they hadn't already copied from someone else's code. A lot of these folks are the ones who are out of a job.

Programming is an art. You can either do it or you can't. If you can do it, then you can get better and better at it. If you can't think like a programmer, you'll never be worth a darn at it.

Frankly, I'd rather recruit someone who could write a really good letter and teach him/her programming than hire some beardless wonder right out of college who thinks he/she is hot stuff.

That said, there are some really good programmers coming out of college. You can tell which ones they are, by asking them to show you some stuff they've developed just for fun.

Any programmer who doesn't enjoy fooling around with code is not one I'd ever hire. When I had problems with some complex issue in an application I was writing, I used to quit and sit down and write something fun just to amuse me. Then I'd return to the money project, refreshed and ready to write.

I have little sympathy for the poor excuses of programmers who are out of work. The good programmers are still working, and making excellent money. The bad ones...well...never mind about them.