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Libertarians and Gay Marriage
TCS ^ | 11/20/03 | James D. Miller

Posted on 11/20/2003 1:05:23 PM PST by freedom44

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To: jwalsh07
Why don't you leave the line where it is with the thousand year old definition of marriage, that being one man and one woman?

That is a very important point of reason.

In the testing of hypotheses, one grants the existing theory the status of "null" or "default" hypothesis, and in order to adopt a competing hypothesis, you must demonstrate some strong proof against the null.

The arguer with the novel idea, or the big change in things, is the one with the burden of proof. It is not necessary for the holder of the status quo to show that every assertion against it is false, one by one. It is for the new assertion to strongly refute the default hypthesis in order to acquire acceptance.

Like in a trial, the default hypothesis is that the defendant is not guilty. It is not necessary that he prove he is innocent(though it helps), it is only necessary that the prosecution fails to prove his guilt for the defendant to retain his status as not guilty.

Society is right until proven wrong. And the gay jihadis haven't proven anything.

Elswhere, many policies have been soundly refuted, yet they remain in place, and are even strengthened. Upside-down world. Our rulers have decided that we should be fed to the gays, to go along with the rest of the insanity and oppression with which they have vexed us.

41 posted on 11/20/2003 3:36:21 PM PST by Yeti (And the Delphi technique is not a proof.)
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To: Lurker
"I've read the Constitution a bunch of times and the word 'marraige' isn't found in it once. It's simply not a federal matter."

Amendment IX:

"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others (rights) retained by the people."

The 9th Amendment thus states that the "federal matter" is prohibited from denying or disparaging the right to marry the person of your choice because that right is "...retained by the people."

The 9th amendment has jurisdiction within the boundaries of a state because of the 14th amendment.

And finally, those individuals "married" in states that have a broad definition of marriage, have another part of the U.S. Constitution on their side:

ARTICLE IV, Section 1.

Full faith and credit shall be given in each state to the public acts, records and judicial proceedings of every other state.

42 posted on 11/20/2003 3:36:29 PM PST by tahiti
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To: Yeti
I'm impressed. Nice post.
43 posted on 11/20/2003 3:41:35 PM PST by jwalsh07
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To: Capitalism2003
Another problem... there will come a day when my kids will be indoctrinated with the Gay agenda. The government, schools, etc. will indoctrinate and enforce.

By that time, I won't have a say in what my child is taught.

So much for less government.
44 posted on 11/20/2003 3:44:20 PM PST by dhs12345
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To: Capitalism2003
Are you really being hurt by their behavior?

Same question came up in Sodom, I bet.

45 posted on 11/20/2003 4:01:39 PM PST by itsahoot (The lesser of two evils, is evil still...Alan Keyes)
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To: pogo101
1. No governmental recognition of marriage at all

The government always recognized the importance of family, which is why tax laws were written to give families a tax incentive to get married and stay married. I remember when being single really sucked from a tax standpoint.

46 posted on 11/20/2003 4:10:40 PM PST by itsahoot (The lesser of two evils, is evil still...Alan Keyes)
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To: Texas Federalist
I feel disgraced by the perversions sweeping America, and I do not like becoming like Sodom and Lot, who was vexed by what was going on around him.
47 posted on 11/20/2003 4:41:24 PM PST by tessalu
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Comment #48 Removed by Moderator

To: Veritas_est
"They aren't satisfied to be "left alone".

The problem is that society has never "left them alone" at all.

We have passed countless laws specifically designed to condemn their lifestyle, and they are starting to blow up in our face.

Example the change in Texas law that led to the now infamous Lawrence case.

Sodomy was illegal in Texas, then it became legal with the exception of male homosexuals.

The old law stood up to challenges because it applied equally across the board to every one, the new law was clearly designed to impact a specific segment of the population.

It served to overthrow ALL sodomy laws across the nation.

49 posted on 11/20/2003 8:00:56 PM PST by Luis Gonzalez (The Gift Is To See The Trout.)
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To: jwalsh07
Yeah, that's what I thought: you're just trying to change the subject from "what is the libertarian view of gay marriage" to "let's talk about the Massachusetts opinion generally, and to heck with the libertarian question." YOU have nothing to offer on the actual topic of the thread, and, when challenged to start things off by answering your own question about rational bases for gender distinctions, chicken out and accuse me of having "nothing to say" because I haven't read several different legal opinions and amici briefs in a case that isn't the subject of the thread in the first place. Let me know, chicken, when you decide to answer your own question first. Pluck ya later.
50 posted on 11/20/2003 10:21:23 PM PST by pogo101
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To: Yeti
The real libertarian premise is that government should be minimal and rational. The fact that the government goes about acknowledging and denying the validity of heterosexual "marriage" is wrong enough, doing the same for gays is more stupidity.

Maybe. I'm not a libertarian. But it seems to me that generally libertarians oppose government discrimination based on sexual orientation. And it seems to me that although libertarians would oppose government blessings of ANY marriages, they (a) view marriages as private contracts, (b) would place just as much value on a gay couple's "marriage contract" as a straight couple's, and thus (c) would see no reason for the government to favor one over the other. My view of the libertarian position obviously differs from yours.

And with all due respect, a gay's right to marry a person of the opposite sex is as meaningless as would be according me the right to marry another man.

It is not the duty of society to pretend we don't know true things that we know. Gayness is not some dualist equivalent of heterosexuality, anymore than hitting myself on the head is equivalent to masturbating. And the convenient assertion that somebody's cousin is quiet and lives with another man is irrelevant.

And that statement is impenetrable. Dualist equivalent? True things that we don't know? quiet cousins?? Maybe you could try that again in plain English.

51 posted on 11/20/2003 10:30:48 PM PST by pogo101
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To: pogo101
Actually, speaking as a libertarian, you have the position correct. I need no license from the government to spend the rest of my life with the woman I love. Neither did I need one to have the religious ceremony performed. In fact, REQUIRING government permission to consider myself "married" is interference in my religion. As long as all parties concerned have given their consent, and are ABLE to do so, the rest should be up to whatever religious tennets you live by.

Staving off further obsurdities from the libertarian bashers.... NO. You cannot marry someone/something that CANNOT give consent. Ergo, you perverts cannot marry your pet gila monster and you cannot marry a child as their Rights are still held in trust by their parent/gaurdian. Considering the nature of the contract being discussed, the gaurdian/parent does not have the "Right" to make such a decision for their ward. That must be left to when the child in question gains their full advocacy of their Rights upon reaching full maturity.

52 posted on 11/21/2003 5:58:15 AM PST by Dead Corpse (For an Evil Super Genius, you aren't too bright are you?)
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To: pogo101
LOL, you are aptly named.
53 posted on 11/21/2003 6:15:49 AM PST by jwalsh07
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To: freedom44
Consequently, you would think that the default libertarian position on gay marriage is simply to have states never address the question of whether homosexuality is moral. Alas, on the issue of gay marriage there can be no neutral position.


What most anarchist libertarians don't understand is that by simply tolerating the freaks, you are taking the "right" stand. By allowing them to engage in some sort of demonic union or "marriage" you are strictly condoning their acts. And condoning sodomy is not the funtion of the government.
54 posted on 11/21/2003 6:18:37 AM PST by richtig_faust
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To: Dead Corpse
All nicely libertarian but what is the rational basis for a libertarian to deny platonic marriage, group marriage, marriage of convenience or any other marriage that one may wish to enter into with other consenting adults and what are the consequences of such a definition of marriage in the world we currently live in?
55 posted on 11/21/2003 6:19:32 AM PST by jwalsh07
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To: buffyt
Maybe arrested mental/emotional development


It stems from the inability to effectively deal with other males. It's purely an emotional abberation.
56 posted on 11/21/2003 6:20:05 AM PST by richtig_faust
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To: Veritas_est
They aren't satisfied to be "left alone". They insist that the rest of the world must approve of their lifestyle. Not in a million years.


DING DING DING We have a winner!! It is purely to shove their perversion in your face and to FORCE acceptance because they can't stand themselves!
57 posted on 11/21/2003 6:22:17 AM PST by richtig_faust
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To: jwalsh07
All nicely libertarian but what is the rational basis for a libertarian to deny platonic marriage, group marriage, marriage of convenience or any other marriage that one may wish to enter into with other consenting adults and what are the consequences of such a definition of marriage in the world we currently live in?

What rational basis could there be? If my wife and I want to marry another woman, what business of it is yours? How are you harmed by us having one extra person living in our house? Convenience? You haven't been keeping up with divorce stats, have you? Platonic? Sick asshats like that more than likely are Darwin Award candidates anyway. Do no business with them. Shame used to be a powerful social guidance tool until nosy feel-gooders got laws put in place that removed voluntary association from our business climate.

If your religion does not change its definition of "marriage", then you would have nothing to worry about.

Of course, you are all in a panic because someone, somewhere, may be having some un-authorized fun. Piss off you crude little troll. What goes on in the bedrooms of America is none of your business.

58 posted on 11/21/2003 6:43:57 AM PST by Dead Corpse (For an Evil Super Genius, you aren't too bright are you?)
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To: richtig_faust
Then how about redefining "marriage" as a purely religious institution and get government out of the business entirely.

Then you can discriminate against anyone you want and won't have to worry about the government coming down on you for it.

59 posted on 11/21/2003 6:45:49 AM PST by Dead Corpse (For an Evil Super Genius, you aren't too bright are you?)
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To: Dead Corpse
Of course, you are all in a panic because someone, somewhere, may be having some un-authorized fun. Piss off you crude little troll. What goes on in the bedrooms of America is none of your business.

LOL, aholes abound in the world, you will never be lonely.

Where in the world did you dig up this crap? I could care less what you or anybody else does in your bedroom, when you bring your bedroom into the public policy arena then it becomes my business.

You and your marxist friends do not get to change the meaning of words or rule by judicial fiat no matter how you have or don't have sex.

It always amuses me when self described libertarians cheer on the the consolidation of power into judicial oligarchies when it accords with their ideology. You have provided todays amusement. Thanks.

60 posted on 11/21/2003 6:58:59 AM PST by jwalsh07
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