Israel Debates Over Levels of Criticism

AP ^ | 11/16/2003 | KARIN LAUB

[a_Turk]

AMERICAN ASSOCIATION OF JEWISH FRIENDS OF TURKEY - EDITORIAL

[Alouette]

FRmail me to be added or removed from this pro-Israel ping list.

[Bobby777]

Where does legitimate criticism of Israeli government policy end and anti-Semitism begin?

seems pretty clear to me ... when the "jihad warriors" are blowing up buses, restaurants, discos, entering homes, blowing up synagogues, shopping malls, bus stops, etc ...

I'd say that's pretty clear anti-semitism ...

but what is the source? hmmmm ... someone in another thread called this "the holy scriptures of a legitimate religion" ... indeed ...

The Dinner Table - [5.51] O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

[9.5] So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

The Hadith Volume 4, Book 52, Number 176:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:

Allah's Apostle said, "You (i.e. Muslims) will fight with the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O 'Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.' "

The Hadith Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "The (Final) Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

[Tabi Katz]

"Opposition to the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip is widespread in Europe. Some analysts say Europeans are trying to atone for their own past oppression of colonized peoples."

I don't see any guilt at all on their part. Rather, they are encouraging those who want to finish what Hitler began.

[Bobby777]

which must explain why parts of Europe welcomes Islam with open arms ...

[jocon307]

"I don't see any guilt at all on their part. Rather, they are encouraging those who want to finish what Hitler began."

You are correct, my dear!

[Mr. Mojo]

That Euros care so much about a "shitty little country" and their border dispute with a bunch of Jordanian squatters (aka "Palestinians) and could care less about the region's non-Israel-related problems - such as Muslims enslaving Christians in Sudan, the Syrian occupation of Lebanon, Saddam's slaughter of his own people, etc. - speaks volumes, and can only be attributed to their age-old disease --- anti-Semitism.

And since the enemy of their enemy is their friend, the Euros are completely oblivious to the snake they now find themselves in bed with. They're in for a rude awakening.

[Bobby777]

They're in for a rude awakening.

that's for sure ... they eat their masters ...

[tubavil]

"Israel Debates..." will be written on Israel's headstone.

Another suicide bombing...Israel debates.
Another busload of Orthodox Jews blows up...Israel debates.
CIA trained arab sniper shoots mother...Israel debates.
Synagogues blown up...Israel debates.
World leaders openly anti-Semitic...Israel debates.
The Second Holocaust...Israel debates.

[anotherview]

You seem so keen to write Israel's obituary. Israelis, OTOH, are much more optimistic about our future than even our friends in America. Tell me, why so? What do YOU think Israel should do?

Debate is natural and indeed positive in a free, democratic society. Perhaps you prefer a totalitarian society prone to violent acts,

[Tabi Katz]

"Who have the Jews attacked when I wesn't in response to an attack on them? When have they ever started a war? When has a Jew ever strapped on a bomb and killed Arabs? When have Jews ever committed genocide? And when has Israel ever done these things?"

Jews, Christians, and all civilized people respect life - ours and others. Therein lies the difference. There are people (and that's using the term VERY loosely) in this world who know nothing but violence. They live by the bomb, die by the bomb, and do very little in between but plan their attacks.

Why Western Europeans, who supposedly fit the "civilized" category, are sympathetic to these bloodmongers is beyond my comprehension. Jealousy, maybe; guilt no. If they had a conscience and wanted to make amends for their past sins, tolerating and even encouraging the Jew-haters would not be their MO.

[Tabi Katz]

"Debate is natural and indeed positive in a free, democratic society. Perhaps you prefer a totalitarian society prone to violent acts"

Are the societies of Hamas, Hezbollah, al-Qaeda and their friends free and democratic? Do they NOT commit violent acts?

We are not talking about Likud debating Labor (or, for that matter, Republicans debating the Dumbos). We are talking about a tiny little country, with legions of enemies both within and outside her borders, sitting down and talking to people who are sworn to her destruction (and having the violence increase with every promise).

[anotherview]

Are the societies of Hamas, Hezbollah, al-Qaeda and their friends free and democratic?

Of course not.

Do they NOT commit violent acts?

They, along with Islamic Jihad, PFLP, DFLP, and Arafat's own Fatah faction commit countless despicable acts of violence.

We are not talking about Likud debating Labor (or, for that matter, Republicans debating the Dumbos). We are talking about a tiny little country, with legions of enemies both within and outside her borders, sitting down and talking to people who are sworn to her destruction (and having the violence increase with every promise).

First off, I know precisely how big Israel is. From my home in Netanya on the coast to Samaria is all of seven miles. The debate I am defending is between Israelis and Israelis, not between Israel and terrorists. The legitimate debate is over how to best deal with the enemies you describe.

The article talks about Israel trying to engage European leaders, for example. Not all Europeans are anti-Semites, although far too many are. Israel used to enjoy great support from the English and French governments. Indeed, in the 1950s that support was far stronger than that from America. It was President Eisenhower who pressured Israel to withdraw from Sinai the first time. FWIW my father fought in that war.

Discussions between Israelis over the best course of action are appropriate. Discussions between Israel and nations she hopes to convince to at least not support terrorists are equally appropriate.

[anotherview]

debate ping

[Tabi Katz]

Sorry. I read the article but not all the responses, and I misunderstood your post to refer to the talks with the palis. Next time I'll do my homework :)

As for internal debate, I generally agree it is a good thing, but not when soldiers and civilians alike are being blown up on a regular basis. Israelis are under siege, and it is time to unite and fight the real enemy.

I remember that in the days following 9/11, there was very little partisan debate in this country. We knew what we had to do - deliver a good ass-kicking - and we put our political differences aside, however temporarily. Like it or not, this is wartime, and I fear that a divided Israel will be a defeated one.

[anotherview]

Terror attacks are not a matter for debate. What to do about them is. You say crush them at all costs. Fine. How? How will the U.S. react? How will U.S. reaction affect Israel? See my point?

[halfdome]

The Jews attacked when it was not in response to an attack on them when they bombed the King David Hotel, and when a Jewish terrorist opened fire in a mosque in Hebron. Of course, that wasn't the IDF, it was Jewish terrorists.

[anotherview]

The King David Hotel was used by the British as a miltary command post. The bombing occurred during the 1946-48 Jewish revolt against British rule in Palestine. It could just as easily be seen as an act of war as a terrorist attack.