LIFE IN ENGLAND UNDER OLIVER CROMWELL

History Learning Site ^

[EllaMinnow]

According to their own words, my husband's ancestors left England in 1632 because they couldn't tolerate the Papist tendencies of Queen Henrietta Maria.

I bet they're still spinning in their Puritan graves at the thought of Irish-Catholic me bearing their honored name.

[2banana]

He ordered that all Irish children should be sent to the West Indies to work as slave labourers in the sugar plantations. He knew many would die out there - but dead children could not grow into adults and have more children.

Tell this to next race hustler who thinks of only one color of skin...

[rustbucket]

From the following site: Cromwell.

“Cromwell made numerous civic reforms. His Council passed ordinances that brought relief to debtors and to poor prisoners who could not afford bail payments. Cromwell reorganized England's treasury, known as The Exchequer, to make it more efficient. He also supported state subsidies for universities and tried to iron out the complicated English court system. Most notably, Cromwell gave state protection to Baptists, Presbyterians, Independents, and other formerly persecuted Protestant minorities. Cromwell's opinion of Roman Catholics, however, remained low, and they were afforded no such protection”(Spark Notes). His rule also brought about many unfavorable reforms. “He limited freedom of the press, demanded rigid moral standards, and adopted other strict measures” (World Book 1152).

I have more than a passing interest in Cromwell, as one of his daughters was my gr-gr-gr-...gr-gr aunt. As far as I know, she is still buried in Westminster Abbey. Cromwell had good points as well as bad points. He was the original pious moral scold.

[jimtorr]

I'd say Chuck I had his father to blame for his divine right attitude, to a great extent.

James VI and I apparently sincerely and strongly believed it. He ruled the Church of England as "Christ's Vicar On Earth", as he put it. When in Sunday Service he was known to correct the person delivering the sermon, homily, eulogy, etc., whenever James considered the person in error of fact or Latin grammar.

James was quite the scholar. According to James himself, he spoke 6 languages fluently and 8 others not so well. James probably himself wrote parts of the King James Bible, and perhaps Shakespeare's Macbeth, as well.

He was known in Europe as The Wisest Fool in Christendom. Perhaps his most foolish act was to impart to his son Charles the idea of Divine Right.

[witnesstothefall]

Reducing Cromwell to a short article is impossible and serves to obscure more than to illuminate.

It should have surprised noone at the time that after the Restoration Cromwell should've been dug up and made to stand trial even as a corpse.

As Milton put to verse:

Not only dost degrade them or remit
To life obscured, which were a fair dismission
But throw'st them lower than thou didst exalt them high...

Oft leav'st them to the hostile sword
Of Heathen and prophane, their Carkases
To dogs and fowls a prey.


Cromwell himself must've known what a horrible fate awaited him, both in history and at the hands of his successors.

[Incorrigible]

Bump

[Chancellor Palpatine]

Milton was a toad - typical of the tunnel-visioned ideology he so thoughtlessly adopted and served.

[Joe Marine 76]

Teddy Bear,

You are correct! An ancestor of mine, the Bishop of Raphoe by the name of Redmond Gallagher (O'Gallchobhair) took in many of the ship-wrecked sailors of the Spanish Armada and gave them refuge.

[Rifleman]

Cromwell was not a nice man, but he created the conditions that allowed the end of the religious conflict that had plagued England. He was a despot and as a libertarian I hold no brief for any such, but by the standards of the time, England could have done much worse than this man who made a painter redo a too idealized portrait, to show "warts and all."

[TIElniff]

I wonder if the theocracy of Cromwell was worse than the tyranny of Chancellor Palpatine, as described in the following quotation from starwars.com/database. Is this why you choose to post under the name "Chancellor Palpatine"?

"Palpatine was the supreme ruler of the most powerful tyrannical regime the galaxy had ever witnessed, yet his roots are extremely humble, traced back to the peaceful world of Naboo.

Before his rise to power, Palpatine was an unassuming yet ambitious Senator in the Galactic Republic . Palpatine saw the Republic crumbling about him, torn apart by partisan bickering and corruption. All too common were those unscrupulous Senators taking advantage of the system, growing fat and wealthy on a bureaucracy too slow to catch them.

Palpatine's moment of opportunity came as a result of a trade embargo. The Trade Federation , in protest of government measures that would tax their outlying trade routes, blockaded and invaded Naboo. Naboo's planetary leader, Queen Amidala, rushed to Coruscant for Palpatine's aid. Together, the two pleaded to the Senate for intervention, only to see their request stalemated by Trade Federation filibustering. Frustrated by the government's inability to do anything, Queen Amidala acted upon Palpatine's suggestion, and called for a Vote of No Confidence in the Republic's leadership.

Chancellor Valorum was voted out of office, and Palpatine was soon nominated to succeed him. The crisis on Naboo created a strong sympathy vote, and Palpatine became Chancellor. He promised to reunite the disaffected, and bring order and justice to the government.

Despite his promises, the Republic continued to be mired in strife and chaos. A decade after his nomination, Palpatine's Chancellery was faced with the challenge of a popular Separatist movement led by the charismatic leader, Count Dooku . Many in the galaxy feared that the conflict would escalate to full-scale warfare, but Palpatine was adamant that the crisis could be resolved by negotiation.

[[ Palpatine ]]

The Separatists didn't agree. Upon the discovery of a secret army of droids, it became apparent that the Separatists were on the verge of declaring war against the Republic. To counter this, the Republic needed a military, and Palpatine required the authority to activate the Republic's newly forged army of clones. To that end, Senators loyal to Palpatine motioned that the Chancellor be given emergency powers to deal with the Separatist threat.

With spoken regrets, Palpatine accepted the new mantle of power. He promised to return his absolute authority to the Senate after emergency subsided. What no one realized was that the galaxy would undergo further upheaval, and that a state of crisis would ensure Palpatine's authority for decades.

Palpatine instituted a military build-up unprecedented in galactic history. He created the New Order, a Galactic Empire that ruled by tyranny. The Jedi Knights, his biggest threat, were extinguished by his greatest dark side pupil: Anakin Skywalker, who had become Darth Vader.

During the Galactic Civil War, Palpatine ruled with an iron fist. He disbanded the Imperial Senate, and passed control down to the regional governors and the military. During the Hoth campaign, Palpatine expressed to Vader his concerns over Luke Skywalker , a young Rebel powerful in the Force. Vader suggested that the two convert the youth to the dark side of the Force, an idea the Emperor seconded.

The Emperor was a scheming ruler, planning events far in the future, using the Force to foresee the results. Palpatine allowed Rebel spies to learn of the location of the second Death Star, and foresaw their strike team and fleet assault. Palpatine crafted an elaborate trap that was to be the end of the Rebellion . He also concentrated on converting Luke Skywalker to the dark side of the Force, even at the expense of sacrificing Vader. In the Death Star, high above the Battle of Endor , Luke refused the Emperor's newfound dark side power, and so Palpatine used his deadly Force lightning to attack the young Jedi. Luke almost died in the assault, but his father, Darth Vader, returned to the light side of the Force, and hurled the Emperor into the Death Star's reactor core, killing him.

Palpatine was a gnarled, old man. An ancient-looking human, he had pale skin, and searing, sickly yellow eyes. He wore a heavy dark cloak, and carried a glossy black cane."

[Chancellor Palpatine]

Yer on to me.....

[tet68]

His body was put on trial, found guilty and symbolically hanged from a gallows at Tyburn (near Hyde Park, London). What was left of his body remains a mystery. Some say the body was thrown on to a rubbish tip while others say it was buried beneath the gallows at Tyburn. His head was put on display in London for many years to come.

What is good enough for Cromwell is good enough for Bill and Hill!.

[BnBlFlag]

"Albion's Seed". ....An outstanding book. The Southern culture, in addition to the Royalists, was also formed by the Scots-Irish who came over in a massive migration in the mid 1700s.

[mrsmith]

"He was the original pious moral scold"

These days it is the impious amoral scolds who have the power to force their views upon us.

And boy do the fools enjoy that power!

[rustbucket]

These days it is the impious amoral scolds who have the power to force their views upon us.

What is it that they are forcing on you personally?

[mrsmith]

The decriminalization of sodomy is the latest "what".

Scolds always abuse power.

[rustbucket]

Scolds always abuse power. I agree with you there. But how has the deciminalization of sodomy affected you? I presume it hasn't, other than perhaps disgust on your part that people do that sort of thing.

[mrsmith]

How about if you join in, so we can both learn something?

Are the scolds who were able to force decriminalization of sodomy different from those who were able to force it's criminalization?

Is an amoral tyrant better than a moral one?

[rustbucket]

I see that you were unable to answer my question.

You ask about two types of people you characterize as scolds. The people who criminalized sodomy seem to fit the definition of scold all right. I'm not sure those who decriminalize it are scolds. They are not imposing their moral indignation/judgment on the perpetrators of the act, nor penalizing them. That is a pretty neutral stance on their part.

On the other hand, I'm glad there are laws against murder. Murder is force by one person committed on another, and such things should be outlawed. Sodomy by consent is not something committed by force against another, regardless of how opposed to the act I am personally (and I am opposed).

[mrsmith]

Face it, some scolds are alright with you as long as "They are not imposing their moral indignation/judgment".

Those who think that the interest of the state in sodomy is justified by it's effect are scolds.

Those who think the effect on society of sodomy does not justify the state's interest are "not scolds".

Bull.

Obviously your's is the second view- you see no "hurt". Mine is the first- I do see "hurt". I see no point in arguing that, it is a political question anyone can have any view upon.

It's not the nature of the morality involved, it's the ability to coerce that makes moral, immoral, or amoral scolds.