Posted on 11/06/2003 7:34:45 PM PST by Heartlander
I very much doubt that you've ruled out all natural causes of consciousness. In my definition [Consciousness is that condition which arises from the brain's capacity to be aware of its own activity] consciousness is -- in effect -- the brain's functioning as a sensory organ, sensing its own activity. Not much more miraculous than eyesight. Even if that doesn't satisfy you, as it apparently doesn't, I leave you with this: An unsolved problem (such as the nature of consciousness) is not proof that a deity has been at work. It's just an unsolved problem. You can't logically say: "We don't understand X; therefore we do know Y."
And how would one go about establishing this alleged "rule"? And, assuming that were even possible, how does it apply to evolution? The "cause" of human brainpower is not simply our ancestors' brainposer, it's also the environment that selected out the inferior models.
There was neither an actuality nor a potential for self-awareness in any of those particles.
Again, you need to demonstrate this.
Those dots do not connect. Materially speaking, as long as the building blocks of the cosmos are mindless, unconscious atoms, then piling on block after block only gives you more mindless, unconscious atoms, but it categorically cannot give you consciousness.
And this:
There is nothing in natural evolution – neither the relatively slow process of gradual variation, nor the unpredictable, Quantum Mechanics-style process of change, that can account for consciousness, because in every case, the causal agents are simply more mindless, unconscious atoms, and as a result, the only possible effect is more mindlessness and unconsciousness.
Only possible? Please show your work.
Even if the increased ability to throw or communicate (or whatever led to our increase in brain size and function) has a selective advantage?
The effect does not follow from the cause, plain and simple. It is not possible.
I'm getting tired of repeating myself. *Why* isn't it possible? It certainly seems to have happened.
1. You could bash Descartes, which is easy to do, but the principle remains.
I really don't see why. The "principle" flies in the face of evolution. The fossil record shows a generally-incresing complexity of animals as we go from the preCambrian to the present. It seems highly likely that there was also a general increase in the complexity of nervous systems as well.
Also, "an effect cannot have a reality which is greater than its cause or causes; " seems very sloppy to me - how is "greater" defined? How are "cause" and "effect" defined? Are mammals "greater" than reptiles? are they "greater" than reptiles plus the environment?
2. You may choose to deny that there is such a thing as consciousness, although you did already agree to it in principle, and I would hate to think that I have been having a discussion with an unconscious automaton.
Quite absurd
3. You could beg to define “consciousness” to mean that it is merely a perception of ours
It's something I perceive in myself, and I infer that other people have a similar perception (unless they're retarded, insane, tripping on drugs, etc), and to a lesser extent, in animals
...and that we really are sophisticated machines, unwittingly responding to unknown stimuli. But this is the kind of thing I wrote about in my Infidels article – you would be appealing to reason in order to prove that there was really no such thing as reason. It would be a contradiction of your entire argument.
This is not true. The appeal is to observation. How is it an attempt to prove there is no reason?
The only logical explanation for the existence of consciousness in the universe is that it was put there by a conscious being.
No, evolution seems like a much more reasonable explanation.
The naturalist hypothesis for the existence human consciousness is dead before it leaves the starting gate,
Maybe, once you show that that the "rule" that Descartes allegedly came up with actually applies to the natural world. Since evolution violates it, and evolution is a very well-attested theory, it seems likely that Descartes was in fact wrong about this. The fact that it's stated in such imprecise terms makes it sound more like theology than science.
You might want to learn something from someone who is actually researching the origins of consciousness: Calvin's "throwing madonna" theory
Major problem here. Any fossil record is compatible with creation. Only one fossil record -- the one we find -- is compatible with evolution. Big difference. That's why we say that evolution is a scientific theory, and creationism is not.
When VadeRetro says evolution "seems" to have happened - what is it that makes that statement scientific, but if I say it "seems" to me that it didn't, I am fool who has not done my work?
Frankly ... yes. And to remove any possible bias regarding evolution, I'll use an example from another science (criminology) which also "reconstructs" (attempts to explain) past events by examining evidence. The reasoning process for each science is the same -- you look at all the available clues, examine them with the best technology possible, and then put together a plausable, comprehensible, cause-and-effect scenario (a theory) for what happened in order to leave such clues for us to observe. Consider:
When we look at the evidence and say that OJ seems to have killed Nichole, that is a scientific statement. If you look at the same evidence and say it "seems" to you that he didn't, then yes ... using your words, you are a fool who has not done his work.
Dismissing God is an option, but it is not a scientific one. People's philosphies and experiences are what direct and shape the way that they perceive the data, connect the dots, and come to conclusions.
Science is limited to dealing with observable phenomena. "Dismissing God" is therefore most definitely a scientific option, where: (1) the proponents of this deity have no verifiable evidence; and (2) there is no conceivable way to test such an option. (Recall, in this context, that I pointed out how creationism fits any fossil record.) Yes, people's unique lives will shape their conclusions. That's why some people are better at this kind of thing than others. Rational conclusions can be tested. If someone's experiences and philosophy cause him to connect the dots and come up with something he calls a conclusion (the Martians killed Nichole) which can't be tested, which has no evidence, etc., then yes, he's got his unique way of looking at things, but we are entirely justified in disregarding his views.
Is the wind blowing outside my window a result of the purely natural effects of atmosphere and climate or is there a God who is creating it? Either, or both - but looking at the data alone will not tell you.
Right. Because the "wind god" is invisible, can't be tested, never reveals himself, etc. The Greeks believed that every tree had a nymph, every brook a naiad. In your way of thinking (if I read you wrong, please correct me, but I'm using your words) the data alone will not tell you. So where does that leave you? Do you regard nymphs and naiads to be scientific possibilities? For me, until I see verifiable evidence of a nymph or a naiad, I shall disegard them.
Descarte's obscure claim can apparently be used to prove that a zygote cannot become a human. However, that would be wrong. At any rate, as Virginia-American has pointed out, Causal Reality is not exactly a law of physics. It's vaguely worded, unquantifiable, and--to the extent that you can tease a real-world prediction out of it--wrong. Real science is not lawyering. It seeks to increase rather than obscure the sum of our knowledge.
While digging for arcane nuggets to lawyer upon, you seemed to have missed a genuinely wonderful rule of thumb called Occam's Razor. Now, it's not a law of physics either, but it's very useful for deciding what's a reasonable inference and what isn't. Science in fact uses it all the time. You'll find it invoked when there's a disagreement about the interpretation of hard data.
The standard explanation of this is "Do not unnecessarily multiply conjecture." However, when people say "What looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck is probably a duck," that's Occam's Razor too. It's silly to conjecture that what looks like a duck is a perfectly executed robot or puppet if there's not a shred of evidence for it being anything but a real duck. Things are mostly what they look like. It can turn out that things are not what they initially look like, but that's not the way to bet or the most reasonable inference. This is especially so if things have been looking a certain way for a long time under detailed examination.
As I've outlined, all the historical trace evidence points to a gradual progression in the development of the traits we associate with humanity. That's what it looks like, so that's probably what it was, never mind that nothing is ever rock-solid proven in science.
A flood of 50 unique body plans in extremely brief period of time is pretty incredible and hand waving cannot make it go away. You could try though it would be a little like a defense attorney saying: “There may be a mound of evidence that shows my client to be guilty but in regard to the black naturalist glove of gradualism, if it doesn’t fit you must acquit.”
Though Gould’s prosecution of gradualism in defense of his client ‘punk-eek’ wasn’t a very good either. It was basically the prosecuting attorney saying, "We have no evidence that this person committed this crime, but I can give reasons why the evidence disappeared. Now, find this person guilty."
Anyway, enough about the Homo-Simpsian case…
What don't you understand about the links I gave you in #247? In particular, your parallel-line graph alleges that every related thing appears suddenly and runs unbroken to now or to some extinction event but the Morton article--which you betray no sign of having ever read--shows that there are evolutionary precursors to the Cambrian phyla. I have also linked the following before:
Taxonomy, Transitional Forms, and the Fossil Record, which specifically addresses the dishonesty of parallel-line charts and other lawyerings on taxonomy which are the soul of creation science.
I could go on but the fact is I really resent having to do this over and over and over with you on every thread because you supposedly can't remember the any of the other dozen times. If your God is a real God and the creator of the universe He should, if he needs you for anything, be telling you to straighten up and try being honest about what you understand and what you remember.
Not to mention you're still lying about Gould. We've really been there and done this and you haven't had the goods yet.
Cambrian. It happened. Deal with it….
Post your timeline and I will post my graphs.
Again, deal with it…
You are a conscious individual and if the natural law that governs your thoughts and life (name it what you will) is a just (relatively speaking) god, maybe it can explain why this happened…
Does the controlling naturalistic god of your being allow for the ignoring of empirical data? Does your mindless god (insert naturalististic name here – RM&NS, chaos, etc… ) allow you to be condescending and tired of trying?
OK…Fine… Lets say that a law of nature alone allowed consciousness, what would you like to name this force that governs you? You have ruled out an intelligent agent and scientists name; laws, rules, theories, all the time – so what natural force would you like to name this governing source and attribute to your self-evident conscious being? Is it self-evident? Would you pick: nymph, RM&NS, wind god, Might makes right, The end justifies the means, Survival of the fittest, naiad, We don't understand X; therefore we do know Y, or It’s all relative, whatever and etc…?
No, go ahead and name the governing force that dictates your thoughts in a naturalistic mechanistic manner and ultimately controls you– I want to know so I can ridicule this god that controls you as you do others… It’s no fair to use the name science or observable data because this comes from… CONSCIOUSNESS! (Oh, I apologize for the perceived yelling that my cap letters my have caused to your conscious being)
Vade… Ultimately, I will never know that I am wrong and you will never know that you are right. (You can ponder that after you name the natural/genetic force that caused you to ponder).
Dealt with it. Try reading it. Try not turning every goddam thread into the last one you were on. Try remembering a little for once. Try just being honest with yourself, the first step in being honest with others.
Lets say that a law of nature alone allowed consciousness, what would you like to name this force that governs you?
Call it the real world, a place with a marked absence of oogedy-boogedy-abracadabra-shazam going on.
Now, wipe the white foam from your lip a read my post again. (If you are actually conscious)
Is he evil because of this?
Darwin published Origin in 1859, before most of the fossil record we have now was known. There was not a single Precambrian fossil known in his day. Not one. This you cite as a justification for your behavior now.
Most modern scientists would now say that Darwin's prediction of Precambrian fossils has been fulfilled, another instance where he was right and his scoffers were wrong. Here's one such acknowledgment:
When Charles Darwin wrote On the Origin of Species, he and most paleontologists believed that the oldest animal fossils were the trilobites and brushwood's of the Cambrian Period, now known to be about 540 million years old. Many paleontologists believed that simpler forms of life must have existed before this but that they left no fossils. A few believed that the Cambrian fossils represented the moment of God's creation of animals, or the first deposits laid down by the biblical Flood. Darwin wrote, "the difficulty of assigning any good reason for the absence of vast piles of strata rich in fossils beneath the Cambrian system is very great," yet he expressed hope that such fossils would be found, noting that "only a small portion of the world is known with accuracy."The Vendian.Since Darwin's time, the fossil history of life on Earth has been pushed back to 3.5 billion years before the present. Most of these fossils are microscopic bacteria and algae. However, in the latest Proterozoic - a time period now called the Vendian, or the Ediacaran, and lasting from about 650 to 540 million years ago - macroscopic fossils of soft-bodied organisms can be found in a few localities around the world, confirming Darwin's expectations.
A classic case of misleading with a real (but really really really really out-of-date) quote. "Darwin acknowledged the Cambrian was a problem ..." (so it must still be one). More creation science! Thank you for the lesson.
Virtually all the transitional forms listed in this post were unknown in Darwin's day also. For someone so often alleged to be a charlatan, he seems to have done amazingly well. Shame he doesn't get enough credit for it.
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