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Abraham Lincoln Was Elected President 143 Years Ago Tonight
http://www.nytimes.com ^ | 11/06/2003 | RepublicanWizard

Posted on 11/06/2003 7:31:54 PM PST by republicanwizard

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To: rustbucket
Historically interesting, but consular relationships fall below the standard for formal recognition. For instance, the U.S. maintains consular offices in Taiwan. There is no "Ambassador to Taiwan" because the diplomatic relationship is "informal." As I remember, instead of an embassy, we maintain something called the "American Institute" in Taiwan, with a Director which looks after American interests.

Similarly, several Europeans governments had envoys in the CSA during the War to look after their economic interests. Some of them, at least, were foreign nationals already living there. The CSA failed to get even one country to formally recognize its existence. The reason is simple; by doing so, the recognizing country would have necessarily endangered or lost its relationship with the legitimate government of the country.

861 posted on 11/25/2003 10:55:26 AM PST by capitan_refugio
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To: Non-Sequitur
There is no mention of this whatsoever in the Journal of the (c)onfederate (c)ongress.

Maybe not in the Journal of the (c)onfederate (c)ongress, but the letter appears in the Journal of the Confederate Congress. (Letter from Benjamin).

862 posted on 11/25/2003 11:00:10 AM PST by rustbucket
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To: stand watie
that is why Tokyo was NOT bombed with the atomic munitions.

LOL. With all the paper and cardboard buildings in Toyko, they didn't need nukes, just a few thousand tons of WP.

Tokyo was virtually flattened in a series of missions that included the March 9-10, 1945 incendiary raid in which an estimated 80,000 to 120,000 Japanese perished (more than in any other raid of the war, including the two atomic bomb attacks).

863 posted on 11/25/2003 11:03:19 AM PST by Ditto ( No trees were killed in sending this message, but billions of electrons were inconvenienced.)
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To: GOPcapitalist
Bishop Lynch was the Ambassador Plenipotentiary of the CSA to the Vatican, and in effect, to Europe. Today, we might use the term, "Ambassador-at-large." Appointing this type of envoy, or accepting a call of this type of envoy, does not convey a formal level of recognition.

It is interesting that Davis chose the Bishop of Charleston for the job. Afterall, Lynch was, in effect, the Pope's "emissary" to the Catholic of South Carolina. One of Lynch's main duties was to work with the Catholic countries of Europe, especially Ireland, to turn off the spigot of Catholics flowing into the United States. He was largely successful.

After the war, the Church did harbor several former Confederate envoys. I believe they negotiated a pardon for Lynch. Of course, the Church harbored Noriega of Panama too.

864 posted on 11/25/2003 11:17:13 AM PST by capitan_refugio
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To: rustbucket
My bad. I looked in volume 2 under the senate and not volume 5 for the house where I should have.

So it appears that Mr. Benjamin admits that, with the sole exception of SaxeCoberg, none of these counsel are accredited by the confederate government, but instead held their offices through the U.S. government. This would indicate that none of those foreign governments recognized the confederacy as a sovereign nation, otherwise they would seek accreditation from the Davis regime, and would be in keeping with the global understanding that the confederate states were nothing more than a rebellious section of the U.S.

On the other hand it seems that SaxeCoberg seems to have thought that Texas was independent, something that I doubt the Davis regime would have agreed with.

865 posted on 11/25/2003 11:20:59 AM PST by Non-Sequitur
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To: capitan_refugio
Bishop Lynch was the Ambassador Plenipotentiary of the CSA to the Vatican, and in effect, to Europe. Today, we might use the term, "Ambassador-at-large."

Lynch was also appointed to a specific role, ambassador to the Vatican. Davis even sent papers to Antonelli informing the cardinal of this specified appointment. Thus Lynch was something more than an ambassador-at-large, also possessing a specific charge to conduct the CSA's treaties with the pope.

It is interesting that Davis chose the Bishop of Charleston for the job.

It is both interesting and insightful to the relations existing between the CSA and Catholic church. That a bishop would accept both a diplomatic appointment from the CSA and simultaneously serve as an intermediary between the CSA and Vatican as a representative of both is in itself telling of a far more formalized and existing relationship between the two than simply sending a diplomat would convey.

One of Lynch's main duties was to work with the Catholic countries of Europe, especially Ireland, to turn off the spigot of Catholics flowing into the United States. He was largely successful.

He was also aided greatly by the letter Pius issued to Davis and subsequent letters from Antonelli, which generally condemned the warfare being waged by the north.

After the war, the Church did harbor several former Confederate envoys. I believe they negotiated a pardon for Lynch.

IIRC, Lynch was at the Vatican when Lee surrendered. The Vatican did indeed fight to secure him safe passage back to his seat in Charleston, as it rightfully should have.

866 posted on 11/25/2003 11:29:04 AM PST by GOPcapitalist
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To: Non-Sequitur
On the other hand it seems that SaxeCoberg seems to have thought that Texas was independent, something that I doubt the Davis regime would have agreed with.

If so, why was the application for exequatur (new word for me) made to the Confederate Government?

867 posted on 11/25/2003 11:29:14 AM PST by rustbucket
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To: Non-Sequitur
You can search all volumes of the Journal of the Confederate Congress at once by clicking on any volume, then clicking on New Search. Under the word "Note", click the little down triangle and scroll down the available journals and records to Journal of the Confederate Congress (full text), then type in the words or phrase you want to search on.

Can't stand to see you any more handicapped than you already are. Cheers.
868 posted on 11/25/2003 11:42:34 AM PST by rustbucket
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To: rustbucket
If so, why was the application for exequatur (new word for me) made to the Confederate Government?

I've no idea. Perhaps he also requested an exequatur from the U.S. government as well?

869 posted on 11/25/2003 11:58:42 AM PST by Non-Sequitur
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To: rustbucket
The one agent who is excepted from these remarks is Ernst Raven esq., who was appointed consul for the State of Texas by his highness the Duke of SaxeCoburg and Gotha, and wire who [see page image] applied to this Government for an exequatur on the 30th of July, 1861.

From Bouvier's Law Dictionary,, Rev. 6th ed., (1856):EXEQUATUR, internat. law. A declaration made by the executive of a government near to which a consul has been nominated and appointed, after such nomination and appointment has been notified, addressed to the people, in which is recited [written] the appointment of the foreign state, and that the executive having approved of the consul as such, commands all the citizens to receive, countenance, and, as there may be occasion, favorably assist the consul in the exercise of his place, giving and allowing him all the privileges, immunities, and advantages, thereto belonging.

870 posted on 11/25/2003 12:00:28 PM PST by 4CJ ('Scots vie 4 tavern juices' - anagram by paulklenk, 22 Nov 2003)
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To: rustbucket
An "exequatur" is simply a registration or permit to act in behalf of a foreign interest. Basically, the host government wants to know who is working for which country and in what capacity.
871 posted on 11/25/2003 12:17:58 PM PST by capitan_refugio
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To: Non-Sequitur
The Duke of SaxeCoburg was the brother-in-law to Queen Victoria of Great Britain. At least I think that is correct -- Prince Albert, the consort of Victoria, was the son of the Duke of SaxeCoburg and his elder brother was for a time the Duke. In Great Britain the SaxeCoburgs now go by the name of Windsor.

At the time of the consulship of Ernst Raven, the Germain duchies were independent and the dukes were treated as separate sovereigns. Eventually the duchies were absorbed into the German state.
872 posted on 11/25/2003 12:39:48 PM PST by rustbucket
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To: rustbucket
I'm well aware of who the House of Saxe Coburg was. I'm even aware that Edward VII was the only monarch from the Saxe Coburg house, that they changed their name to Windsor during WWI because of anti-German sentiment, and that another famous member of the House was Lord Louis Mountbatten. I'd post more information but I'm handicapped, remember?

Regardless, it still gets back to the question of whether or not the counsel also applied for exequatur from the U.S. government. The other counsels did not apply for an exequatur from the Davis regime. Clearly they did not view it as a legitimate government. If the government of Saxe Coburg applied for an exequatur for Mr. Raven only from the Davis regime then that may be the indication of recognition that you guys have been searching in vain for. But if the government of Saxe Coburg applied for an exequatur from both the Davis regime AND the Lincoln administration then its more an indication of them recognizing that the rebellion had muddied the waters and that they were just covering all their bases to ensure that Mr. Raven could carry on his duties of looking after the interests of the German nationals in Texas.

873 posted on 11/25/2003 12:52:32 PM PST by Non-Sequitur
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To: 4ConservativeJustices; capitan_refugio
Thanks.
874 posted on 11/25/2003 12:53:58 PM PST by rustbucket
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To: rustbucket
It's no the "Word of the Day" thread, but it has it's moments, no?
875 posted on 11/25/2003 1:20:35 PM PST by 4CJ ('Scots vie 4 tavern juices' - anagram by paulklenk, 22 Nov 2003)
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To: Non-Sequitur
i hate nobody, other than those who refuse to admit that there were THOUSANDS of war crimes committed against my people & other innocents.

they are EXACTLY the same as the Holocaust denyers.

that too is FACT!

free dixie,sw

876 posted on 11/25/2003 2:08:14 PM PST by stand watie (Resistence to tyrants is obedience to God. ,T. Jefferson)
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To: Non-Sequitur
perhaps because you are SMARTER than most of the damnyankee apologists;at least you KNOW what happened.

free dixie,sw

877 posted on 11/25/2003 2:09:21 PM PST by stand watie (Resistence to tyrants is obedience to God. ,T. Jefferson)
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To: Ditto
true.

no less a person than GEN McArthur said that Tokyo should NOT be bombed with nukes as it was a CIVILIAN target of little intrinsic miltary value.

free dixie,sw

878 posted on 11/25/2003 2:11:21 PM PST by stand watie (Resistence to tyrants is obedience to God. ,T. Jefferson)
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To: mac_truck
did you read the book i told you about?

NO?

i thought NOT.

AFTER you've read the book, come back here and tell me what YOU think the preface and chapter 4 means. then if you're man enough, admit openly that you were either ignorant of the facts or an outright liar.

free dixie,sw

879 posted on 11/25/2003 2:20:16 PM PST by stand watie (Resistence to tyrants is obedience to God. ,T. Jefferson)
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To: stand watie
"no less a person than GEN McArthur said that Tokyo should NOT be bombed with nukes as it was a CIVILIAN target of little intrinsic miltary value.

Again you're full of it. Mac didn't even know the bomb existed until they used it. No one ever asked him where or when to use it. He NEVER said Tokyo was a 'civilian" target, because it wasn't. There were war production factories spread all throughout the city -- thousands of them.

880 posted on 11/25/2003 2:27:19 PM PST by Ditto ( No trees were killed in sending this message, but billions of electrons were inconvenienced.)
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