Scientists find evolution of life

EurekAlert ^ | 10/30/03

[PatrickHenry]

P L A C E M A R K E R

[js1138]

placemarker placemarker.

[VadeRetro]

Maceplarker

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for your post!

Indeed, Jesus taught all of those things and we ought to give them our earnest attention. Most importantly, we ought to live by the Great Commandments, because all of the Law and the Prophets hang on them - namely to love God absolutely and to love our neighbor as ourself.

Christ also said that He came to fulfill the Law and the Prophets (Matthew 5:17) - thus we also ought to study the Old Testament and see how this is so - to know Him better. I believe the first verse of prophesy which points to Christ is Genesis 3:15

[Ogmios]

Yeah, that's it.... what you said...

[bondserv]

Forgive me for such a delayed response to your post.

Let us start each idea with what you imply or believe, then show what the Bible says.

You believe that Adam was the first “ensouled” man, which leads most to believe you think there were other men before Adam who weren’t “ensouled”. Thus leaving the implied Scriptural room for the evolution from animal to man.
The Bible says regarding Adam:

1 Cor 15:47-49
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Gen 3:23
23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

Gen 2:8
8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

For what you say to be true the Bible would need to say:
The first man that God placed a soul into was Adam. Prior to Adam God created soulless men.
Adam was other than dust prior to the fall, after the fall he became earthy in order that Jesus could become an earthy man and die on the Cross.
God did not breath life into the men prior to Adam for they were like unto animals.

You imply there was death on the earth before Adam.
The Bible says:

Rom 5:12
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

1 Cor 15:21
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

Isa 11:7-8
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice’ den.

Rom 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

For what you say to be true the Bible would need to say:
Animals have been killing one another before Adam. The death of “ensouled” man came by Adam’s sin, but death and the shedding of animal blood by other hungry animals on earth was part of God’s original creation prior to the fall. Without sin there is death of non-ensouled creatures. The wages of sin is death, only applies to accountable “ensouled” creatures.

I haven’t seen that in there. As you well know, we need to take the clear areas of scripture to help us understand the fuzzy areas. The sacrificial shedding of the blood of an animal is significant for the covering of sin, as you know God preformed the first sacrifice to cover Adam's shame (nakedness because of sin). God needed to kill an animal, because He didn’t have any naturally dead carcasses tanning on a tree branch. Abel understood that the death of an animal was potent. For without the shedding of blood there is no remission for sin.

Take away the choice of death that Adam made and make it a natural occurance of creation seperate from sin and you remove the greatest significance of Christ’s death on the cross.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for sharing the theology involving Adam being the first mortal man!

I do understand the interpretation of Scripture which underscores this view; my brother and many in his side of the family have the same view. I consider all who hold that view to be co-equal Christians and fully expect to see all of you in heaven!

Truly, I wish you could return the favor and accept those of us who see Adam as the first ensouled man as co-equal believers.

Take away the choice of death that Adam made and make it a natural occurance of creation seperate from sin and you remove the greatest significance of Christ’s death on the cross.

For the Lurkers with regard to the ”Adam was the first ensouled man” point of view:

Christ’s death on the cross and His resurrection did not just ensure us a resurrection from mortal death. All men will be resurrected in the Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20). Christ’s sacrifice saves us from the second death, the judgment – and restores us as members of God’s family.

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. – John 5:28-29

Some of us who believe Adam was the first ensouled man see Genesis 1-3 describing events which happened in both heaven and earth, that Adam was created to be a spectator of the physical realm, but by his disobedience was banished to mortality to suffer physical death and then the judgment, the second death.

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. - Hebrews 9:27-28

Physical death continues and will continue until Christ delivers the kingdom to God the Father and that’s when death will die.

But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.

For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. - I Corinthians 15:20-28

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. - Revelation 20:11-15

Indeed, we see Eden as Paradise – in the spiritual realm (Gen 2 and Rev 2). As with the temple and the ark of the covenant, there are earthly parallels for such spiritual things. The dust from which Adam was made may have been in the spiritual realm.

And it is true that the ”Adam was the first ensouled man” point of view leads to the conclusion that there were and are men who are not ensouled.

But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand. - John 10:26-28

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. – Ephesians 1:4-6

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. – Romans 8:29-30

In sum, the difference in our views is one of emphasis. On the one side, the emphasis is placed on the physical realm – the other, the spiritual realm. Those who emphasize the physical realm will embrace Young Earth Creationism or Last Thursdayism, etc. …. those who emphasize the spiritual realm may embrace those or Intelligent Design or Theist Evolution.

IMHO, the differences ought to give us a much wider reach for spreading the Word - not set us against each other.

[bondserv]

Acts 18:24-36
24 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.
25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.
26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.

I like to think of you more like Apollos. You could spend more time with your brother.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you for your reply!

Indeed, I have spent a great deal of time with my brother speaking of Christ. He does not demean my point of view, nor do I demean his - nor do either of us demean the view of other Christians.

We are both Christian, our witness is just a bit different - which is o.k. according to Scripture. Thanks for mentioning Apollos, the difference between Apollos and Paul is a good example:

And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, [even] as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able [to bear it], neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas [there is] among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I [am] of Apollos; are ye not carnal? Who then is Paul, and who [is] Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? - I Corinthians 3

[bondserv]

If your brother were witnessing the truth of the scripture using the scripture, (especially since his views need no twisting of the scripture) would you interject and contradict everything he had said, with things that flew in the face of a straightforward reading of the passages. I believe he might be offended.

I chose to try and correct you in a respectful way. Please take it as such.

I have never questioned your salvation or attempted to demean you in any way. I am surprised that you read that into my posts.

Forgive me if you misread my post, hopefully I have been able to clarify my statements.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you for your reply!

Your posts have always been in good will and respectful. I've never taken them any other way.

In our discussion I was only hoping that we could see one another's views as differences and not errors. That is the attitude with which my brother and I discuss such things. Neither of us is ever offended, nor am I offended by your attempts to "correct" my understanding of the Word.

[Aracelis]

I like to think of you more like Apollos. You could spend more time with your brother.

Perhaps if we could spend more time rejoicing our similarities, instead of fuming about our differences, we could persuade others to consider the Lord. Personally, I don't believe it matters one whit to God when or under what circumstances we believe the first ensouled man was created. That is not His point. The whole focus of the Bible is to demonstrate that ALL of us fall short, but that God desires above all else to be reunited with His creation...so much so, that He sent us Christ because none of us can ever be perfect. Perfection can and will only be attained by reunification with Him.

Until then, as I suggested before, let us rejoice in our similarities and ultimate destination.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for your post! Very well said, Piltdown_Woman!

Let us rejoice in our similarities and ultimate destination

Amen!

[bondserv]

Thank you for your input. We can all have scriptural misconceptions. I have been corrected by God and other Christians many times over the years. Praise God for the depth of His revelation, for meditating on His precepts brings deeper intimacy with our source of salvation.

That depth necessitates complexity, which in turn creates a hunger for meatier fellowship with God. It is a JOY to seek His face in the Holy Spirit inspired and preserved revelation of our Creator, as well as in prayer and meditation.

Matt 15:6-9
6...Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Matt 19:4
4...Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,

Matt 12:3
3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungered, and they that were with him;

Matt 22:31-32
31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Matt 12:16
6...Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?

Matt 12:5
5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?

Psalm 119:41-48
41 Let thy mercies come also unto me, O LORD, even thy salvation, according to thy word.
42 So shall I have wherewith to answer him that reproacheth me: for I trust in thy word.
43 And take not the word of truth utterly out of my mouth; for I have hoped in thy judgments.
44 So shall I keep thy law continually for ever and ever.
45 And I will walk at liberty: for I seek thy precepts.
46 I will speak of thy testimonies also before kings, and will not be ashamed.
47 And I will delight myself in thy commandments, which I have loved.
48 My hands also will I lift up unto thy commandments, which I have loved; and I will meditate in thy statutes.

God's Grace is unfathomable. He has provided a remedy for our continued failures in His Son Jesus Christ.

[bondserv]

OOps,

Meant to include you in the above Post.

Peace be with you.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so very much for sharing your testimony and some supporting Scriptures for your walk with the Lord! You have inspired me to share my testimony and some supporting Scriptures for my walk, too! So here goes:

I have been walking with the Lord for better than 43 years now. When I was young in the Lord, I was deeply concerned with studying the Bible exhaustively and making sure that I understood all the details to the best of my mortal ability. I spent many hours with different translations, lexicons, encyclopedias, ancient texts, maps and such. I prayed and I meditated at length.

The following passage always seemed impossible, but as time passed I came to understand it:

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. – Matthew 5:48

He was telling me to be perfect, not to think, say or do perfect things. Suddenly, all of the admonitions in Romans 1-8 became very clear. No one can live up to the Scriptures (the Law) – if they could, then Christ died for nothing. However, if I wanted to keep trying to do it, He would let me and I would fail, be frustrated and out of fellowship with Him. The solution was clear. The only way to be perfect is to abide in Him:

Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. – John 15:4

Freedom was so simple and it was there all along. All I had to do was surrender unconditionally to Christ – pour contempt on my ego, pride and vanity. The result was instantaneous; I was overwhelmed with His love and have become an altogether new person. It is exhilarating to love Him absolutely and my fellow man, unconditionally.

I should have seen it from the beginning. In Hebrews 1:3 we read the Christ is the “express image” of the Father. Christ is so fully surrendered to the Father that I cannot tell where He ends and the Father begins! And it was there all along in Christ’s prayer for us:

Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. – John 17:20-23

And there was a bonus. Because while my eyes read the Bible as always, now the Spirit within me reads the Word. The Word is alive, the Scriptures are alive, the Spirit is alive. In this way, He reveals Himself continually to me and guides me to Scriptures according to His will and my need from moment to moment.

Thus, although I truly am interested and care what others may think - no man’s interpretation of the Bible carries weight with me. Paul had the same attitude for the same reason:

For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ. But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught [it], but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. - Galatians 1:10-12

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. - Galatians 2:20-21

There is such glorious liberty in being fully surrendered to Christ, I would never change a thing.

Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord. - II Corinthians 3:17-18

I pray for God’s abundant blessings and peace for both of you!

[Markofhumanfeet]

And after all the testimony I think

Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

[Alamo-Girl]

Indeed! Thank you for your post!

[Stone Mountain]

Self bump