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"Are Democrats the New Tories?"
ChronWatch ^ | 10/20/2003 | Jon Alvarez

Posted on 10/20/2003 8:06:44 AM PDT by jonalvy44

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To: jonalvy44
You miss several key points, of which your oversight and attitude clearly leads one to believe you to be a Democrat and a Bush-basher, thus your attempt to argue my points: 1. The colonial legislatures petitioned the government of England for years concerning the abuses they felt were aimed at them.

No, really? < / sarcasm> And this point has what bearing on the argument at hand?

Besides, this happened because the radical Whigs were able to wrangle control of a number of different legislatures and, in Massachusetts, a number of town meetings. The Whigs were radicals, not conservatives.

2. The patriots of the day represented the majority of the populace with Loyalists representing approx 30%.

Is that so? Cites, please, and a definition of your terms. Only the most radical of the radicals, Samuel Adams, favored a complete split with England (which you seem to use to define "patriot,") by 1776. As a matter of fact, most of the consesus work done around forming a Continental Army following June of 1775 (Breed's Hill) was watered-down in consensus because Adams feared alienating the more conservative Whig representatives from other colonies because most of them did not want to split with England. Look it up.

A stat more frequently cited is: 33 1/3% were patriot-leaning, 33 1/3 % were Loyalist-leaning, and 33 1/3% were outright indifferent to the question.

3. The English gov't was oppressive in its handling of the colonial legislatures, at times disbanding them. Thus attempting to silence the voice of the American colonists.

The English government didn't disband colonial legislatures. It didn't have the power to do so. The Royal Governor did, as did Thomas Hutchinson in Massachusetts when he disbanded the General Court after Adams announced he was sending a delegation to attend a Continental Congress in the late summer/early autumn of 1775. But Hutchinson wasn't acting on orders from England---he was operating under his own authority.

There is another comparison we could make between the Tories (Loyalists) and Democrats today: Willingness to surrender autonomy and control to a foreign gov't (King George or the United Nations).

The English government wasn't a "foreign" government. You're completely redefining terms here: the colonies were English colonies. Americans considered themselves colonists.

I do appreciate your efforts to point out discrepencies in my article, but once again, you are wrong. Democrats today are on the wrong side of the issue, just as the Tories of that day were.

Therein lies your only rhetorical "link" between Tories and Democrats.

Your attempts to argue that provide conclusive evidence in my mind that you are both a Democrat and a Bush-hater.

So because I know the history of our country a lot better than you do, I'm a Democrat and a Bush-hater? So be it.

I know it drives most Democrats mad to think their "patriotism" is being questioned, but not only is their patriotism being questioned, so is their loyalty.

This is absolutely precious: my patriotism is being questioned by someone who'd fail junior high school American history . . .

Not only are you an idiot, you're a belligerent one as well. Why don't you read a book and grab a clue about what you're writing about BEFORE you put pen to paper? Chuckleheads like you make real conservatives wince with embarassment.


21 posted on 10/20/2003 10:59:11 AM PDT by Hemingway's Ghost
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To: jonalvy44
Hemingway's Ghost: Wasn't Hemingway a communist?

Attacking my screen name---a bold admission of an extremely weak argument.

I'm very familiar with the Loyalists. I prefer the use of the term "Tory" as the Loyalists were not loyal to their colonial neighbors, but rather an oppressive monarchy.

You've demonstrated that you really have no clue what you're writing about. You are the author of that piece, aren't you. My apologies, but that was really sad.

22 posted on 10/20/2003 11:02:57 AM PDT by Hemingway's Ghost
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To: jonalvy44
Yes. Tea-party time.
23 posted on 10/20/2003 11:03:52 AM PDT by madison10
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To: Hemingway's Ghost
wow, must've touched a nerve. (((((Hemingway's Ghost))))))
Such emotion...

You still do nothing to my argument. Hutchinson was a tool of the English gov't. He was heavy-handed in dealing with the colony of Massachusetts. You argue about my stats that the Tories were a mere third of the populace, then you confirm that in your argument. The fact that over time the radical elements of the independence movement gained further support in the middle and southern colonies further supports my position. The rebels represented the colonies, the Tories chose to oppose them. If you wish to argue, as does your comrade AngryClam, about technicalities, fine. It still does not diminish the fact that Democrats, like the Tories, will be seen as the losers in the history books.
24 posted on 10/20/2003 11:18:42 AM PDT by jonalvy44
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To: madison10
seems some Tory defenders in here are a bit upset with the comparison...

Care for some Freedom Fries? LOL
25 posted on 10/20/2003 11:19:34 AM PDT by jonalvy44
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To: jonalvy44
"Are Democrats the New Tories?"

I think "New Copperheads" would be a better comparison --- all the way down to a failed and disgruntled former general being their best electorial hope.

It's in the oldest traditions of the Democrat party to put politics and power above any other consideration.

26 posted on 10/20/2003 11:50:19 AM PDT by Ditto ( No trees were killed in sending this message, but billions of electrons were inconvenienced.)
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To: Ditto
Not bad...there's just something appealing about attaching such a label on Ted Kennedy and Co.
27 posted on 10/20/2003 11:53:12 AM PDT by jonalvy44
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To: jonalvy44
Well, lets start it. From now on, instead of talking about the "Rats", let's just call them what they are --- Copperheads!

Well, maybe Lieberman and Gebheart are still Rats, but the other 7 dwarfs are Copperheads for sure.

28 posted on 10/20/2003 12:02:39 PM PDT by Ditto ( No trees were killed in sending this message, but billions of electrons were inconvenienced.)
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To: jonalvy44
You hardly touched a nerve, Jon: I've just never seen anyone display such obvious ignorance in a public forum so proudly, joyously, and belligerently. And my post was hardly a nit-picking of the technicalities of your post: you got every element of the basis of your argument (Democrats are the new Tories?) wrong. Take a history class or two or at least do a little bit more than a Google search before you write your next tome. But please, do ping me on it if you post it here. You're quite a prize.

What next: Ho's really a great guy because he fought the Japanese for us?

29 posted on 10/20/2003 12:23:47 PM PDT by Hemingway's Ghost
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To: Hemingway's Ghost
Hey, thanks. Thanks for stopping by.
30 posted on 10/20/2003 12:52:08 PM PDT by jonalvy44
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To: ElkGroveDan
historically illiterate guy alert!
31 posted on 10/20/2003 6:04:55 PM PDT by TheAngryClam (Don't blame me, I voted for McClintock.)
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To: TheAngryClam
I agree that there has been some fallacious history tossed around lightly here, but can't we all get along anyway?

Can we agree (without making a direct comparison to Tories) that the country would in fact be better off if we tarred and feathered the Democrats and sent them to New Brunswick?

32 posted on 10/20/2003 7:01:46 PM PDT by ElkGroveDan (Fighting for Freedom and Having Fun)
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To: ElkGroveDan
Those poor Canucks...
33 posted on 10/20/2003 7:07:51 PM PDT by TheAngryClam (Don't blame me, I voted for McClintock.)
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