Feeding tube removed from comatose woman at center of long-running legal battle

Associated Press ^ | 10-15-03

[justshutupandtakeit]

I was only correcting the comment about the Nazis' program of murder and not interested in your speculations.

[Sunshine55]

Sign this petition NOW!

[ch53gunner]

"It wouldn't take 10 day's for me to off the SOB."

---

I share your anger over the cold-heartedness of this woman's husband, but please be careful in your choice of words - this comment could be construed as a threat by the lawyers if someone were so inclined. Just some FRiendly advice.

[Lee Heggy]

Thanks, Good advice. Anger switch off.

[nmh]

OMG, I had no idea that you could legally starve a person to death. Thanks for enlightening me.

[nmh]

I know for a fact that the "traditional" medical community is fraught with anyone's interest but hte patient however I didn't know that they gravitated towards murder, which is what you are talking about.

I suppose I shouldn't be shocked as I am. After all the "traditonal" medical community rountinely carries out abortion for any reason at any time and there is barely a whimper from more "ethical" doctors. The more "ethical" traditinal doctors if anything just shrug their shoulders, say it's a shame and change the subject. By doing this they degrade themselves and all their profession stands for - "do not harm" GEESH - now they kill the unborn and it only follows that the elderly and NOW those younger are being murdered.

I no longer view the "traditional" medical community at large highly. This coldness to patients and lack of compassion has become an epidemic amongst its practioners.

[justshutupandtakeit]

It is rather amusing to watch all the knee jerk assumptions because I have asked questions about this situation. Now I have been accused of being a Nazi, supporting Peter Singer, wanting to starve babies, withhold medical treatments to cancer patients, wanting socialized medicine among other things. None of these are true nor have I ever said this lady should or shouldn't be allowed to die. All I have said is that were it I in this state I would not want to be maintained for decades. Fortunately there are plenty of volunteers here who would be happy to accommodate my wish, with great glee apparently.

Apparently doctors with opinions contrary to those expressed here are ignorable and not to be considered since they are Pro-"murder." Judges whose job it is to make these horrendous decisions are fair game for villification and abuse since they are pro-husband whatever that is. Why in hell should a judge or doctor care about either party more than another? I don't get it.

It seems this case has taken political dimensions and been swept into the Anti-abortion camp when it is a medical decision.

In reality, medicine is already rationed that is what the price system does. If you can pay the price you can live, if not you likely die. But an individual has a limit to what he can pay while it is assumed that an insurance company or taxpayer has infinite resources. Reality check- none of the above has infinite resources so my questions need to be dealt with rationally not attacked from an emotional perspective.

[honeygrl]

"Are you kidding? People like Michael Schivao often live into their nineties. They know how to take care of THEMSELVES. "

I hope he has nightmares about Terri for the rest of his life.

[honeygrl]

I'm going to try to be nice to you. Many of us here ARE emotional about this. Many of us have followed this a long time and our hearts are just breaking over this. It would be nice of you to just leave us alone to grieve, complain, get angry, etc over this without turning it into a debate as to whether it's the right or wrong thing to do.

[secretagent]

The correlation of the vegetative state and unconsciousness rested on the medical view that the cerebral cortex is the primary locus of "conscious awareness."

george wythe cited an article where an internist said that Terri has most of her cerebral cortex missing.

We realize that a minority of neurologic specialists remain unconvinced of this, and an even smaller minority continue to maintain that patients in a vegetative state can experience pain or suffering.

Perhaps this explains Judge Greer's refusal to accept testimony or even read the testimony of doctors brought in by the Schindlers. He had already excluded them from the body of respectable medical opinion.

Members of the task force were aware of occasional cases of the vegetative state arising from predominantly thalamic damage. Our report notes that relatively selective thalamic necrosis may follow acute global ischemia. The autopsy findings on Karen Ann Quinlan do not refute the basic assumption of the primary locus of consciousness.

This last bit didn't register in my cerebral cortex.

Thanks for your postings!

[secretagent]

Michael Schiavo says he is carrying out his wife's wishes that she not be kept alive artificially.

Doesn't report that the parents say this doesn't fit with the Terri they knew.

Felos has said that the Schindlers were "still in denial" over Terri Schiavo's wishes not to be kept alive with the tube, an IV-like device that pumps food and water into her stomach. Doctors have testified that the noises and facial expressions Terri Schiavo makes are reflexes and do not indicate that she has enough mental capabilities to communicate with others.

Doesn't report the claim of the Schindlers that 6 doctors deposed contradictory testimony, and that Judge Greer admitted he hadn't even read their testimony.

[secretagent]

Apparently doctors with opinions contrary to those expressed here are ignorable and not to be considered since they are Pro-"murder."

Not by me. I'd like to see addressed the point made by a pro-husband internist: Terri has missing cerebral cortex, replaced by spinal fluid, and this means no rehab can help. Sounds like a plausible fact to this layman, and I've heard no rebuttal.

Judges whose job it is to make these horrendous decisions are fair game for villification and abuse since they are pro-husband whatever that is. Why in hell should a judge or doctor care about either party more than another? I don't get it.

I don't care about motive, but actions. Judge Greer has apparently refused to consider opposing medical depositions. I don't have to blame his character, which doesn't interest me much, to criticize his censorship.

It seems this case has taken political dimensions and been swept into the Anti-abortion camp when it is a medical decision.

The pro-abortion liberal media apparently see it that way, hence their disinterest in conflicting medical testimony.

In reality, medicine is already rationed that is what the price system does. If you can pay the price you can live, if not you likely die.

Not so in this case. The parents have volunteered to pick up Terri's cost of care.

In fact this proves more that if you can pay the price, you can force the dehydration and starvation of a disabled woman.

But an individual has a limit to what he can pay while it is assumed that an insurance company or taxpayer has infinite resources. Reality check- none of the above has infinite resources so my questions need to be dealt with rationally not attacked from an emotional perspective.

Infinite funds not required here. And a moot point, since the taxpayer has no obligation.

[EggsAckley]

Meanwhile.......time is ticking away for Terri, as she slowly dies, minute by minute, from dehydration.

I'd be curious to know what's going on in her room at the Hospice. Is hubby-dearest standing over her chanting under his breath, "hur-ry hur-ry hur-ry hur-ry......"? Would it be beneath him to put a pillow over face just to speed things up?

And Gov. Jeb now has legal authority to stop this atrocity. What's taking so long? This is like a bad movie.

Tick-tock, Jeb.

*sigh*

[Ohioan from Florida]

Hello, I am not a lawyer but I have been following Terri's case closely since late August. Here is (I think) the statute that is being referred to. I will bold the part that you are specifically referring to. I believe the lawyers all know about this statute, but the problem for Terri is that the court has pronounced her as PVS which we can tell she is not. She is merely disabled, but the court has chosen to rule otherwise. There are many, many doctors who say that Terri can be rehabilitated if they would only be allowed to try. The problem with that is that Michael is Terri's legal guardian, and so somehow it's ok for him to deny Terri these things. I still thought it was against the law based on these statutues but, apparently the court says it's ok. Beats me! I am scared for all my family and friends that are still there. I pray that they will always be surrounded by good people who will not hurt them. I'll post the statute first and the link next.

The 2003 Florida Statutes

Title XLVI

CRIMES Chapter 825

ABUSE, NEGLECT, AND EXPLOITATION OF ELDERLY PERSONS AND DISABLED ADULTS View Entire Chapter

825.102 Abuse, aggravated abuse, and neglect of an elderly person or disabled adult; penalties.--

(1) "Abuse of an elderly person or disabled adult" means:

(a) Intentional infliction of physical or psychological injury upon an elderly person or disabled adult;

(b) An intentional act that could reasonably be expected to result in physical or psychological injury to an elderly person or disabled adult; or

(c) Active encouragement of any person to commit an act that results or could reasonably be expected to result in physical or psychological injury to an elderly person or disabled adult.

A person who knowingly or willfully abuses an elderly person or disabled adult without causing great bodily harm, permanent disability, or permanent disfigurement to the elderly person or disabled adult commits a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

(2) "Aggravated abuse of an elderly person or disabled adult" occurs when a person:

(a) Commits aggravated battery on an elderly person or disabled adult;

(b) Willfully tortures, maliciously punishes, or willfully and unlawfully cages, an elderly person or disabled adult; or

(c) Knowingly or willfully abuses an elderly person or disabled adult and in so doing causes great bodily harm, permanent disability, or permanent disfigurement to the elderly person or disabled adult.

A person who commits aggravated abuse of an elderly person or disabled adult commits a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

(3)(a) "Neglect of an elderly person or disabled adult" means:

1. A caregiver's failure or omission to provide an elderly person or disabled adult with the care, supervision, and services necessary to maintain the elderly person's or disabled adult's physical and mental health, including, but not limited to, food, nutrition, clothing, shelter, supervision, medicine, and medical services that a prudent person would consider essential for the well-being of the elderly person or disabled adult; or

2. A caregiver's failure to make a reasonable effort to protect an elderly person or disabled adult from abuse, neglect, or exploitation by another person.

Neglect of an elderly person or disabled adult may be based on repeated conduct or on a single incident or omission that results in, or could reasonably be expected to result in, serious physical or psychological injury, or a substantial risk of death, to an elderly person or disabled adult.

(b) A person who willfully or by culpable negligence neglects an elderly person or disabled adult and in so doing causes great bodily harm, permanent disability, or permanent disfigurement to the elderly person or disabled adult commits a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

(c) A person who willfully or by culpable negligence neglects an elderly person or disabled adult without causing great bodily harm, permanent disability, or permanent disfigurement to the elderly person or disabled adult commits a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

History.--s. 3, ch. 95-158; s. 2, ch. 96-322.

http://www.flsenate.gov/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0825/SEC102.HTM&Title=->2003->Ch0825->Section%20102

OK, I'm having trouble getting the hyperlink to link right now, so try to copy & paste it if you want to view it. Hope this helps.

[texasbluebell]

Thanks for posting the information. That is probably exactly what the Schindler atty was referring to.

Last night on Fox, Lis Wiehl said pretty much what you've said, re: the husband being given more rights as guardian than her parents, because Florida laws seem to favor the spouse in these situations (hope I've stated that correctly from what she said).

It's frightening to me too though, because in this particular case there seem to be some ulterior motives behind the push to take her life. At least that's what seems to have been reported by her parents and brother and sister.

Hard to believe that judges and lawyers haven't picked up on this angle.

I only recently started following this case myself, but from what I gather there's not much time left for Terri since hydration is also apparently being withheld from her. She will probably not last through this weekend in that case, so I hope all who can help her are working furiously to stop this while there's a chance to save her.

[Ohioan from Florida]

I'm sorry if anyone has posted anything like what I am about to, because although I have been following Terri's case closely since the end of August, the last couple of days I have only been on the computer for brief instances. (I have 3 children who also use it for school reports, which is what I've been up against recently). Anyway, on the 2nd monster Terri thread, I posted a link to an article about research that has been done in the last few years specifically on people in the PVS. It was published recently in a prominent scientific periodical, though I don't recall at the moment which one right now.

Basically, it says that new research has indicated that people with what was previously thought to be no consciousness, no ability to think or feel, still have active parts that respond to different stimuli. Partly through advances in technology and partly because we don't completely understand the way the brain works, they are realizing that some patients are trying to communicate, and some have been able to regain consciousness. The idea that we humans completely understand all the mechanisms going on inside our body is ludicrous. Every day adnances in medicine are discovered. What was once the most advanced technology soon becomes old information.

Since the money in Terri's malpractice trust fund was supposed to be used for Terri's rehabilitation (note the word "trust" in trust fund), it is rather untrustworthy that Michael began issuing "do not resuscitate" orders on Terri within months of the money being under his control. Michael has admitted under oath that he refused to have Terri be treated for a urinary tract infection as early as 1993. How can this be caring for her?

I will try to review the 2000+ thread to see if I can find the link to that article again, and when I do, I'll post it for you all again.

[6323cd]

And Gov. Jeb now has legal authority to stop this atrocity.

He does... but he won't. Beyond depressing.

[secretagent]

Please ping me with what you find. I have a special interest in cerebral cortex damage.

[Ohioan from Florida]

I have found my earlier post on the 2nd Terri monster thread, however, the link to the article I mentioned is no longer active unless you want to pay for the whole article. The original link is from post #872, but if you go to post #875 on that thread you can read part of the article. The article was from the Sept. 28, 2003 issue of NYTimes in the magazine section. The article is titled "What if There Is Something Going On in There?" written by Carl Zimmer. The article Zimmer based his information on was published in the scientific journal Neurology and was written by Joseph T. Giacino and 10 others sometime last year. The NYTimes article was great food for thought for those of you who think Terri is not aware. She could be, and that's the point. If she is, this is cruel and unusual mercy. Just because she can't communicate back with us, doesn't mean she won't feel this pain.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/986663/posts?page=875#875

Sorry, my hyperlinking abilities are not working today.

[secretagent]

It wouldn't surprise me, but I've heard mostly the Schindler version.

I suppose Schiavo could see himself as honoring Terri's wishes, but I've got a bias against him right now.