'Gods and Generals' ... and an angry Mayor Dow

Mobile Register ^ | 10/13/03 | Jim Van Anglen

[gatex]

"No. I asked you to name the NORTHERN state that still had slavery! Is that so freaking hard for you to do? Just spit it out. Was it Vermont? Maine? Ohio? Michigan? Pennsylvania? ..."

No, you did not ---

You asked some one else --- but I gave you four states with a reference in post 75.

"freaking" is so juvenile.

[Ditto]

That was Seward's opinion a few days after it was issued. He was wrong. Here's the effect it had.

You have already emancipated nearly two millions of our slaves.....
-- Jefferson Davis, Sept. 2, 1864

[Ditto]

If the Confederacy had freed their slaves, the Union would still have been against secession.

ROTFLMAO. And if Hitler had only been a pacifist and Stalin had only been a humanitarian ....

[Ditto]

Your question has been answered three times!!

Which post did you name a NORTHERN state? And how many stars were on the CSA battle flag?

[laotzu]

So, you can't fit the facts with your contention.

I know that I'm shocked....we are all shocked here.

[Ditto]

Explain how these facts fit with your contention that the war was about slavery.

Where did I say that? The Confederates seceeded over slavery with the "Black Republicans" and Black Lincoln" as the excuses. The War was about preserving the Union.

[stainlessbanner]

So Lincoln's administration was wrong?

Here's an British view of the EP:

"The only possible effect of the Proclamation would be the dreaded servile insurrection...Either a slave rising or nothing. Lincoln's inconsistency was regarded as proven by two things: his earlier denial of any lawful right or wish to free the slaves; and, especially, his not freeing the slaves in "loyal" Kentucky and other United States areas...."

Vanauken, 1989

[laotzu]

As pointed out in post #111, and others; see post #75.

But, that is obviously not the answer you have practiced rebutting in front of the mirror. I can tell your anxious, and believe you have something interesting prepared.

So, help us out here. What answer is it you want?

[laotzu]

"Where did I say that?"

In the very next sentence.

"The Confederates seceeded over slavery"

Also; how much wood would a woodchuck chuck, if a woodchuck could chuck wood? I know this is as relevant as your "stars" question.

[Ditto]

Cool. How about the French view? I wonder what the Germans thought? Or how about looking at 3 million people freed from slavery because of the EP in the two years after the EP was issued or the 100,000 of those freed slaves who served in the United States Army?

[gatex]

[this is a quote] --- "Free in the Confederacy under the confiscation act and Emancipation Proclamation, the refugees found themselves imprisoned and sold as slaves in the Union state of Kentucky, where slavery remained legal until the ratification of the Thirteenth Amendment eight months after the war was over."

[source-- The Civil War - Illustrade History, by Geoffrey C. Ward, with Ric Burns and Ken Burns, page 181]

[Ditto]

I know this is as relevant as your "stars" question.

I guess you don't know how many there were, or even that the number is significant.

[Non-Sequitur]

The Emancipation Proclamation was signed January 1, 1863.

Actually it was signed in September 1862 and went into effect January 1863 but that's not the point. Slavery officially ended in the southern states the same time it ended in Kentucky and Deleware, December 1865 when the 13th Amendment went into effect. There is no reason to believe that some of the slaves that had been held in areas exempted by the Emancipation Proclamation were not still in bondage at that time.

[laotzu]

The Union had slaves before the Confederacy.

The Union kept slaves after those in the Confederacy were freed.

If the Confederacy had freed their slaves, the Union would still have been against secession.

Explain how these facts fit with your contention that the war/secession was about slavery.

[Spok]

The history revisionists hate competition. The fact is not all Southerners, even the generals, were slave owners or even supporters of slavery, i.e., Robert E. Lee.
Further, the goal of President Lincoln was to heal the factions into one country, not inflame the hatred that already existed. The hate mongers of the left continue to promote class warfare by promoting simplistic and demeaning stereotypes.

[laotzu]

"I guess you don't know..."

Guess? Guess!!

Whatever helps hide your shame.

Now, you tell me, how much wood?

[Non-Sequitur]

However; unlike the Union, the South stood aginst socialism.

Bullshit. Who was it who placed a levy on agricultural production 'for the war effort'? The Davis regime. Who mandated that privately owned merchant ships had to reserve a percentage of their cargo space for the government? The Davis regime. Who proposed income taxes at levels far above those implemented in the North? The Davis regime. Who nationalized idustries like salt and liquor and textiles? The Davis regime. Who forced soldiers to remain in the ranks far after their enlistment was over? The Davis regime. Who implemented internal passports be required for any travel by any person, black or white? The Davis regime. Who forced the government into the private lives of their people to an extent never seen before or since? The Davis regime? So who were the socialists here?

[Non-Sequitur]

If the Confederacy had freed their slaves, the Union would still have been against secession.

If the south had freed their slaves, they would have had no reason to secede in the first place.

[stainlessbanner]

Throw a bone to the South, Non - they had a profitable, effective postal system.

But lets look at the mercantilist agenda of the American system - internal improvements, railroad subsidies, centralized banking, the greenback dollar, corporate welfare, protectionism, special interest groups.

Grant's administration, complete with the new "lobbyists" was a disaster when these scanadlous activities got out of hand.

[laotzu]

"So who were the socialists here?"

The North proudly fought for an all powerful, centralized government. The South fought against it.

The same war continues to this day. Only, the names aren't "Union" and "Confederacy". Today they are "Liberals" and "Conservatives".

The tactics remain the same, though. You know, 'the south is bigoted and racist, and would still practise slavery today if they could', and 'Republicans want to starve children, rape the rain forest, and kick old folks into the street'. Same old twisting of events, and monsterous lies about their opponent.