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Gratitude To Ukraine
substack ^ | 12/11/22 | Timothy Snyder

Posted on 12/11/2022 10:34:29 AM PST by Sunsong

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To: Sunsong

Ukraine vs Russia: Viking descendants vs other Viking descendants...

Nothing ever changes...


61 posted on 12/11/2022 1:49:10 PM PST by SuperLuminal (Where is the next Sam Adams when we so desperatly need him)
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To: SuperLuminal

Yes Ukrainians are desendants of Norse Vikings AND Jews AND Greeks. The whole is greater than the sum of the parts...


62 posted on 12/11/2022 1:52:32 PM PST by Sunsong
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To: Sunsong
A well written and reasoned article? ✔
personal attacks? ✔
attempted thread hijacking? ✔
repeated posts? ✔

Flak confirmed. You are over the target.

The article is counter intuitive and makes sense in every point made.

63 posted on 12/11/2022 1:56:54 PM PST by Widget Jr (🇺🇦 Sláva Ukrayíni 🇺🇦 - Just say no to CCCP 2.0)
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To: Widget Jr

Thank you.

I repeat: A lot of our FRiends must have missed the story of the good Samaritan, of loving and helping others

“me and mine” and that’s it for them, I guess


64 posted on 12/11/2022 2:03:40 PM PST by Sunsong
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To: Sunsong

65 posted on 12/11/2022 2:04:36 PM PST by ransomnote (IN GOD WE TRUST)
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Comment #66 Removed by Moderator

To: Freedom56v2

Your questions answered one by one.

1. Do we have a treaty with Ukraine?
(As a Brit, but the same answer applies to the USA). Yes. Actually, more than one. The UN Charter and the Budapest Memorandum, both of which our countries (and Russia, ironically) agreed on multiple occasions to uphold.

With Budapest we signed up to assist Ukraine if its sovereignty and territorial integrity were threatened. The other signatory, and primary beneficiary, was Russia.

2. What is the strategic interest?
If Russia’s invasion and annexations are allowed to attain legal acceptance it’ll undo a principle set after World War 2 that is already undermined by years of lethargic responses to foreign adventures. But so far it hasn’t been broken beyond repair. The principle is, any nation at the UN with full Charter recognition has an inherent right to not be invaded for territorial and political gain, by a neighbor that it poses no threat to. America, India, China and Russia are big enough for this not to be a huge problem, but every other country on the planet might get a bit pissed off of Russia tore up the principle, China benefited by invading Taiwan, and America and India were idiot enough to say “so what, it doesn’t hurt us” right before both get dragged by treaty obligations into a new forever war.

3. Ukraine more or less corrupt than Russia?
Less. That’s completely obvious. Ukraine has been economically weakened by Russia for nearly twenty years and its corruption is a hangover from the Soviet era. When Ukraine made attempts to get rid of that corruption Moscow intervened. This year, a major investigation into financial corruption would’ve landed. Isn’t it convenient that the war has derailed an investigation that would’ve put oligarchs and carpet bagging Kremlin stooges like Yanukovych firmly under the hot lamp?

4. How many “military advisors” is acceptable on the ground?
Not really relevant.

5. Do you support troops in UKraine?
Yes. For the exact same reason as I supported action in response to the invasion of Kuwait, and supported Thatcher sending our troops to the Falklands. On both occasions the principle that underpins answers 1 and 2 were at stake. Saddam invaded a peaceful neighbor for the oil, Galtieri invaded an archipelago that no native Argentine settlement had ever existed on, and Putin harried then invaded a neighbor that has never threatened it in any way other than by choosing modernisation and westernisation.

On all three occasions the principle must be upheld: Invade for crappy reasons, and expect to get your ass kicked all the way back home AND THEN be in the international naughty step for a few years at least.

6. What is your spending limit to how much we give?
Capex, or spend to invest?

The USA peed away trillions on unnecessary war adventures and on covid in just ten years for no return on investment. The couple of trillions on prosecuting the Cold War and rebuilding Europe gave a return on the investment.

Try looking at it from a “return on investment” perspective instead of as a continuation of money down the drain. Ineffective, depreciated and outdated kit is being used up or repurposed.

New military investment can be targeted at what’ll actually work better at much lower cost, cultural capital has value too, and don’t forget Ukraine was helping NATO for years while we worried too much about pissing Putin off. They’re the ones taking the big risks.

7. Do we even know the total spending so far?
Not to the last cent but compared to what was spunked away in Iraq and Afghanistan (or on covid, or on student debt) it’s a pittance.

8. How much more of our weaponry, etc. do we send?
Depends on the value of the kit in future war scenarios. Is the USA ever going to be invaded by a bunch of assholes fighting like it’s 1916? If the answer is no, then a stack of the stockpile is helpful to Ukraine but otherwise is useless. If you want the USA to stop being the world police, get rid of that junk on a cause worth fighting, then say we’re never doing it again, leave NATO, and rebuild the military as a DOMESTIC force not a cold war hangover.

9. How and when do we replace our stockpiles for if/when we are attacked?
The far more sensible question is, what do you need if you’re invaded. Right now I’d say a few million cheap drones and precision HIMARS makes a lot more sense than aircraft carriers and old fashioned bombers.

As for these...

How much higher should inflation go?
How much higher should gas prices go before unacceptable?
How much higher should natural gas and heating oil go?

Depends which side of the Atlantic you’re on. Ending the conflict in Ukraine in a way that leaves Putin, Prigozhin, Kadyrov and others emboldened is far more likely to worsen things in Europe and the UK because those guys’re hell bent on having a new Cold War with the West even if they “win”. So from our perspective, completely demolishing the chauvinist fantasy looks far more likely to reduce those effects than letting Putin have his annexations in return for a ceasefire Russia will eventually violate.

10. How does it feel to be on same page with brandon and the media???

I don’t care what they say - not at all. Never watch it, listen to it, read it. I’m a conservative living in a country Russia has recently threatened to attack and I’ve lived in countries that could be attacked after Russia’s finished with Ukraine, if we don’t convince Russia to abandon its retarded empire building fetishism.

I totally get that the concept of being actually invaded by the Russkies is something that hasn’t seriously bothered the USA for at least 50 years but think about how scared America got at the time and now consider that y’all were stressing over an outlandish hypothetical. Europe got it happening for real.

We’re headed there again.

This time round, Europe and the UK need to look to each other to deal decisively with the Rashist menace so the world stops seeing it as USA vs Russia. It’s Europe vs Russia this time. I’d love the USA to keep out of it.

But the USA and Ukraine do have an agreement that Russia agreed to also, and literally no nation on the planet had any objection to until Russia decided unilaterally to break it. You won’t improve America’s reputation one bit by following in Russia’s footsteps and ripping up that undertaking.


67 posted on 12/11/2022 2:38:09 PM PST by MalPearce ("You see, but you do not observe". https://www.thefabulous.co/s/2uHEJdj)
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To: tlozo

Why? It iis pretty much how nations have dealt with each other since they emerged.


68 posted on 12/11/2022 3:05:07 PM PST by robowombat
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To: Freedom56v2
Your posts indicate you are a NEOCON and clearly you support brandon’s position.

I don't believe in knee jerk opposition. Also, military support for Ukraine is the overwhelming majority opinion of most elected republicans. About 155 house republicans and 39 senators voted for the aid.

*I don’t appreciate snark or misleading posts

My apologies.

so you and your brandon-position supporting friends

Once again, do not believe in knee jerk opposition.

Enjoy the rest of your day...

All the best...

69 posted on 12/11/2022 3:08:14 PM PST by tlozo (Better to Die on Your Feet than Live on Your Knees)
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To: robowombat
Why? It iis pretty much how nations have dealt with each other since they emerged.

Right, who cares if dictators conduct wars for territorial expansion in Europe, its not like that can lead to a World War.

70 posted on 12/11/2022 3:18:52 PM PST by tlozo (Better to Die on Your Feet than Live on Your Knees)
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To: tlozo

I am fine with the Euros dealing with their own continent for a change. With a southern border being overrun with turd world scum we have more that is really our business to deal with.


71 posted on 12/11/2022 3:20:44 PM PST by robowombat
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To: robowombat
I am fine with the Euros dealing with their own continent for a change.

They may not have that capability. It's our fault. They're in NATO so we've protected them for 7 decades. As a result, they are spending their budget on their generous welfare state. Joe is the President of the United States. So he is not going to call out NATO to increase their defense spending. If I'm the President, I would support Ukraine. After the war is over, I would pull out of NATO. I think the UK, France, and Germany will have to take the lead of NATO. Both UK and France have nuclear weapons so they can use the umbrella to cover the alliance. Turkey should be out of NATO. So that's two countries right there. Canada can stay in NATO because they are more "European" than USA anyway.

72 posted on 12/11/2022 3:25:08 PM PST by MinorityRepublican
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To: robowombat
With a southern border being overrun with turd world scum we have more that is really our business to deal with.

Right, its the 60 billion sent to Ukraine mostly as weapons that stopped us from securing our southern border, out of 6.6 trillion spent last year.

73 posted on 12/11/2022 3:25:40 PM PST by tlozo (Better to Die on Your Feet than Live on Your Knees)
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To: MinorityRepublican; All

That is tough. The Euros spent decades calling us ‘the stupid nation’, backstabing many US foreign policy initiatives, never carrying their weight in NATO. They are so rich, smart, sophisticated, worldly and better than we are. Fine. Let them deal with their own continent. If Russia were to reassemble the east bloc I could care less. The cold war was against communism, not either against a non-communist Russia or for European style social democracy.


74 posted on 12/11/2022 3:29:38 PM PST by robowombat
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To: tlozo

The difference is that it is US taxpayer money spent on some European state that means nothing to us. If you love that perverted country so, go there and take your own money.


75 posted on 12/11/2022 3:31:27 PM PST by robowombat
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To: robowombat
The difference is that it is US taxpayer money spent on some European state that means nothing to us.

The money was spent to neutralize the russian military.

76 posted on 12/11/2022 3:37:11 PM PST by tlozo (Better to Die on Your Feet than Live on Your Knees)
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To: Sunsong

https://europerenaissance.com/2022/06/24/up-to-half-the-nato-weapons-shipped-to-ukraine-are-being-sold-in-black-markets/

Search it and you will find many more articles.


77 posted on 12/11/2022 3:38:28 PM PST by lizma2
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To: tlozo

That is none of our business. Let the Euros sort out their issues.Why do love that perverted country so?


78 posted on 12/11/2022 3:42:51 PM PST by robowombat
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To: robowombat

Russia threatening to nuke us is “not our business”? How weak have we become. Our enemies see a weak and divided US. And they are on the move.


79 posted on 12/11/2022 4:23:08 PM PST by lodi90
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To: Sunsong
"....Yes, get Ukraine all the weapons they need asap! May it be so!...."


80 posted on 12/11/2022 4:38:52 PM PST by ganeemead (Ukraine/Zelensky: Adding an element of chutzpah to ordinary Nazism...)
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