Posted on 08/21/2021 5:52:42 PM PDT by Charles Henrickson
When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is of no avail. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him. So Jesus said to the Twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?” Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.”
Ping.
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Cant be a “hard saying” if he only meant his “flesh” symbolically....Trogos baby!
Indeed, since that is what their natural minds presumed it was, contrary to the frequent use of metaphor and teaching that belief is how one obtains spiritual life in John' and other Scriptures, then the idea that Christ would be feeding them literal crucified flesh (which is not even what Catholics believe) was a hard saying. But which use of metaphor was used here and elsewhere in John to manifest true seekers of Truth versus the natural carnally minded who did not perceive the spiritual explanation given.
Thus see my reply to Henrickson's previous article on this, and here for a fuller examination. Or if you choose, remain in Catholic delusion.
“then the idea that Christ would be feeding them literal crucified flesh (which is not even what Catholics believe) was a hard saying.”
It was hard because Jesus was asking them to do what they perceived as cannibalism. And Jesus doubled down. And they left as a result...the first “Protestants”. -— But give credit to Martin Luther — even he believed in the Real Presence...anyhoo Jesus told his disciples that the human condition; “the flesh”, would not understand it. But the Spirit will.
Rather, if the words are to be taken literally then you do believe in cannibalism, and indeed a plainly literal understanding of "take, eat, this is My body which is given for you" would mean that what the apostles looked at and ate was the manifestly physical crucified body of the Lord - which Scripture emphasizes identifies the true Christ come in the flesh, versus a Christ whose appearance and all other testable properties did not correspond to what He materially was, but to those of inanimate objects which are said to not even exist.
And rather than the Lord doubling down on a literal understanding, the Lord told them He would not even be on earth (and thus personally provide this flesh ), and that as far as food goes (which they presumed He was speaking of), the flesh profits nothing for it is the Spirit that gives life thru His word which must be received, which is the only understanding that conforms to John the Scriptures that follow:
Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. (John 6:60-64)
"Some of you that believe not" were those carnally minded Jews who were not born of the Spirit by believing the gospel, but as protoCatholics were governed by their natural mind, and ignore or dismiss the abundant use of metaphorical language in Scripture regarding food. And which is includes David plainly stating that water was human blood, and thus he would not drink it but poured it out unto the Lord. (2 Samuel 23:16-17) And that the Cannanites were "meat" for Israel, etc. with the use of metaphorical language in John. In John 1, the Lord is called the "Word became flesh," as representing Truth being incarnated, and "the Lamb of God" even though He took on humanity.
Then in Jn. 2:19,20, the Lord referred to Himself as the temple but spoke in a way that seems to refer to destroying the physical temple in which He had just drove out the money changers, and left the unbelieving Jews to that misapprehension of His words, so that this was a charge during His trial and crucifixion by the carnally minded. (Mk. 14:58; 15:29) But the meaning was revealed to His disciples after the resurrection.
In Jn. 3:3, the Lord referred to spiritual birth in such an way that its was misunderstood as physical, so that Nicodemus exclaimed, " How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? (John 3:4) Jn. 6:63, the Lord goes on to distinguish btwn the flesh and the Spirit, " That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit," (John 3:6) thereby giving Nicodemus a clue to figure it out, inviting and requiring seeking, rather than making it very clear. And which requires more revelation than that chapter, as with Jn. 6, revealing being born spiritually in regeneration. (Acts 10:43-47; 15:7-9; Eph. 1:13; 2:5)
And had those carnally-minded Jews in John 6, who were looking for physical food, continued on in seeking the spiritual meaning, then they would understood, "As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me," (John 6:57) And "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." (John 6:63)
For just how did Christ "live by the Father"? The answer is that the manner by which the Lord lived by the Father was as per Mt. 4:4: "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." Thus for the Lord Jesus who lived by every word of God and said were are to, (Mt. 4:4) the doing of His will was "meat."
For once again using metaphor, the Lord stated to disciples who thought He was referring to physical bread, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work. (John 4:34) And likewise the Lord revealed that He would not even be with them physically in the future (which the lost Jews presumed would be needed under a literal meaning), but that His words which transcendent time and space are Spirit and life: “What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.” (John 6:62-63) Indeed, "hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness." (Isaiah 55:2)
For as with the rest of John and Scripture, it is faith which obtains spiritual life by believing the gospel. As John esp. makes clear, contrary to consuming flesh. Thus as Peter affirmed, "thou hast the words of eternal life." (John 6:68)
For the Holy Spirit only and always taught that that spiritual life was obtained by receiving the word of the gospel, and never shows this was by actual physical ingestion of anything, and that one "lives by" (upon) God's word as well, having first by repentant faith in the gospel and then by effectually feeding upon the word of God and thus obeying it. For while the Lord's supper is nowhere referred to as spiritual food anywhere interpretive of John 6 (Acts thru Rev.), the word of God is what is taught as being spiritual nourishment, being that which is called "milk" and "meat" (1Co. 3:2; Heb. 5:13; 1Pt. 2:2) by which believers are "nourished" (1Tim. 4:6) and built up, and with the preaching of which being the primary active function of pastors. (Acts 20:32) Thanks be to God.
When God says, it is.
“First, we are not eating the dead flesh of a dead human being. We are receiving the living Christ, whole and entire, body, blood, soul and divinity. Further, this living and glorified Lord freely offers himself to us. He said: “No one takes my “life from me. I have power to lay it down, and power to take it up again”
How have no manifest flesh to prove that, while in endocannibalism, pagans ate the body of the deceased hoping to obtain spiritual benefits.
"We are receiving the living Christ, whole and entire, body, blood, soul and divinity. "
You are simply parroting propaganda which will not make it true, and either you take the "words of consecration" at the last supper literally, or as Biblically metaphorical, versus a metaphysical contrivance with a Christ whose appearance and all other testable properties did not correspond to what He materially was, but is present under the appearance of of inanimate objects which are said to not even exist, yet these manifest and test to be what they appear, as the body of the true Christ did and would in His incarnation.
"Further, this living and glorified Lord freely offers himself to us. He said: “No one takes my “life from me. I have power to lay it down, and power to take it up again”"
Now you are abusing Scripture, for that verse does not refer to your metaphysical contrivance christ but to the actual literal death of the real Lord and His bodily resurrection, and who always appeared in human form (Lk. 24:39) and is only spiritually present with believers gathered together now. (Matthew 18:20) May God peradventure grant you "repentance to the acknowledging of the truth." (2 Timothy 2:25)
Since Protestentism allows personal interpretation of scripture, I will stick with mine, and u yours. All is well.
Scriptures are not of private interpretation......nor is It any denominations job to interpret the scriptures catholic and otherwise.
It’s the Holy Spirits work in the life of the believer as he walks with the Lord....
Actually in Catholicism the same is done in essence, that of personal interpretation of what Scripture and your church says, and thus you have your many sects. However, the NT church actually began contrary to simply following leadership. For the church actually began in dissent from those who sat in the seat of Moses over Israel, (Mt. 23:2) who were the historical instruments and stewards of Scripture, "because that unto them were committed the oracles of God," (Rm. 3:2) to whom pertaineth" the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises" (Rm. 9:4) of Divine guidance, presence and perpetuation as they believed, (Gn. 12:2,3; 17:4,7,8; Ex. 19:5; Lv. 10:11; Dt. 4:31; 17:8-13; Ps, 11:4,9; Is. 41:10, Ps. 89:33,34; Jer. 7:23)
And instead they followed an itinerant Preacher whom the magisterium rejected, and whom the Messiah reproved them Scripture as being supreme, (Mk. 7:2-16) and established His Truth claims upon scriptural substantiation in word and in power, as did the early church as it began upon this basis. (Mt. 22:23-45; Lk. 24:27,44; Jn. 5:36,39; Acts 2:14-35; 4:33; 5:12; 15:6-21;17:2,11; 18:28; 28:23; Rm. 15:19; 2Cor. 12:12, etc.) And the veracity of even apostolic oral preaching was subject to testing by Scripture. (Acts 17:11)
See 14 questions as regards sola scriptura versus sola ecclesia
Its impossible for a man to raise from the dead too....
Its impossible for a man to raise from the dead too....
Well then the Holy Spirit told me in my walk with the Lord the truth of John 6; and by coniky-dink it is the same as the what the Church has taught since its beginning. So really you shouldnt object.
The concept of magical properties of blood and sacrifice is common to many false and pagan religions....but as stated prior....believing that sacraments can do as you believe is no different than tribal people believing they can drink a concoction of blood and ashes of their departed and that for doing so they have ‘received’ their departed into themselves. Further our salvation is believing in the finished work of Christ on Calvary and His resurrection on our behalf... He did it all...and it is finished in Him alone..... It is by and through His Spirit who He promised to Those Who believe by faith that we have eternal life in Him.
Of course I would object for it’s not true. Just as at the beginning the church took in pagan practices in order to attract the heathen by including their practices. ..and still does today...Haiti is a prime example as they include pagan voo-doo practices into their Catholic Church services.
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