AK and StG – Kissing Cousins

Forgotten Weapons ^ | December 12th, 2012 | Forgotten Weapons

[Carriage Hill]

Thanks; interesting history.

[Carriage Hill]

MUCH simpler design and you’re right; they’d sell a lot of them. The aftermarket would probably take care of under-folding stocks and other accessories.

[MasterGunner01]

“I always thought the StG was based on the delayed roller locking mechanism that the CETME and HK G3 are based on.”

No, the MP-43/MP-44/StG-44 all used the tilting bolt similar to the FN-49, FN FAL, and SKS rifles. The StG-45, in development when WW2 ended, used the roller locking mechanism pioneered by the MG-42 machine gun.

Dr. Ludwig Vorgrimler and his staff immigrated to Spain after the war and took the ideas of the StG-45 with them to CETME. The Spaniards were looking for a good semi-auto/full-auto rifle to replace their bolt action Mausers. The CETME firm produced several different versions of roller locked rifle. By 1950, CETME had working prototypes of the new roller locked rifle and proceeded with development.

When the German Bundeswehr had to look around to replace its G1 FAL rifles because the Belgians would not license production to the Germans, the rifle selected was the CETME (modified to German specifications). CETME helped the Germans get up and running with their new G3 rifles produced by Rheinmetall and Heckler and Koch. Early G3 rifles even bore the CETME inscription until 1964. Rheinmetall stopped G3 production in 1969 so it could coucentrate on MG3 production and Heckler and Koch assumed full responsibility for G3 production. CETME did not develop the roller locked action to the extent H&K did. H&K marketed its roller locked action in both pistols, rifles, and light machine guns.

[mylife]

And it is my understanding that the CETME was developed in Spain by the Germans because the Germans were restricted form arms development after WWII.

So they developed it in Spain as a kind of way to cheat on the arms restriction.

[mylife]

To my knowledge, the CZ 52 is the only pistol in the world to used the delayed roller locking bolt.

[MasterGunner01]

The Czech CZ52 is the most famous, but H&K marketed and sold the SP89 (a derivative of the MP5K) and the P9 and P9S pistols. Production of the P9 series began in 1965. The P9 and P9S were discontinued in 1970 and 1978 after limited production runs. The SP89 production began in 1989 and was discontinued in 1994 with passage of the 1994 AWB. The CZ52 has enjoyed the largest production numbers of the three at 200,000 units and in-service use from 1952 to 1982.

[MasterGunner01]

Initially, that was true. However, the Cold War had a way of changing things rapidly. The North Atlantic Treaty Organization was formed in 1949 to curtail Soviet expansion into Western Europe. Germany's armed forces were reconstituted. Initially, the Germans were armed primarily with U.S. WW2 weaponry, but they soon were looking to build their own.

The German arms makers from the old Mauser Werke were heavily involved with the development of the CETME rifle and when the Bundesgrengeschutz (Border Guard) and Bundeswehr (Army) began looking for a G1 replacement in 1956 to 1957, the Spanish CETME firm stepped up to the plate. [Candidate replacements for the G1 successor were the G2 (Sig SG 510) and G4 (ArmaLite AR-10). The CETME product was successful and the Germans adopted it as the G3.

[mylife]

The G3 was and is a fine firearm. Works like a hose.

Thanks for all of the historical background.

[MasterGunner01]

I remember the CETME Sport. They are worth some good dollars today because very few were imported. One thing I never understood was that the modular trigger groups are completely different internally. The CETME and HK91/G3 are very robust rifles. Strange as it seems, the CETME feels like its felt recoil is milder than the HK. Why? I have no clue.

[mylife]

CETME ad G3 recoil buffers are identical.
The only difference is that the CETME uses a 7”? bolt to hold the stock to it and the G3 uses a 1.5”? bolt.

Of course they both use different sights, but other than that I know of no differences.

[MasterGunner01]

As I recall from my CETME and G3 building days, these rifles are similar except where they are different. The bolt carriers will not interchange nor can you mix butt stock assemblies and bolt/bolt carrier assemblies. The bolt rollers will interchange between Spanish and German guns, but not the bolts and component parts. The trigger housing fire control package will not interchange and the selector positions are T-S-R (semi-safe-auto) for the CETME vice S-E-F (safe-semi-auto) in the G3. CETME magazines are curved, but G3 are straight (both are interchangeable). G3 magazines come in either steel or aluminum.

[MasterGunner01]

Some enterprising owners of the Century-built CETME clone have decided that they want the German G3 plastic furniture on their rifles. This does require some fitting and alteration to the rifle because the CETME was designed for a wooden forearm and butt stock, while the G3 used both wood and plastic. Fitting the plastic forearm to the CETME requires modification in that the CETME uses a captive screw to attach the forearm and the G3 uses a push pin. Likewise, changing from a wood Stock on the CETME to the G3 plastic stock takes some fitting and modification. Fortunately the plastic pistol grips interchange between G3 and CETME.

[mylife]

Oh, I forgot the barrel trunnion is different too.
Maybe I know less about these two rifles than I thought.

You seem quite knowledgeable.

[mylife]

BTW,I have a G3 22 conversion kit for sale if you know of anyone interested.

[MasterGunner01]

I have both a Century-built G2 and a CETME clone. I became very familiar with their workings and what would and would not interchange.

Ditto on the trunnions. However, you'll only see it if you're building a gun from a parts kit.

One thing that I did add was the flap-type magazine release the originals had but got left of the semi-auto clones. ATF says it's OK to reinstall it if the retention pin is a blind one and cannot be removed to install a full-auto trigger group. You would not believe how this simple retrofit aids magazine changes!

[MasterGunner01]

I had a similar kit, but I sold mine. I’ll bet one of our FR folks with a HK-91 or G3 clone or PTR-91 might want it. It’s a nice, inexpensive way to shoot.

[MasterGunner01]

“... Century-built G2 and a CETME clone.”

Typo correction: G3 vice G2.

[mylife]

They were great deals at $350.
Also the C93 was a great deal at $400 with bayonet and 2, 40 rd mags

[MasterGunner01]

The great thing about the CETME and G3 clone rifles was all the kits on the market when the Spaniards and Germans switched to the G36 rifles and carbines. Lots of spares at bargain basement prices. The same is not true for the HK33/HK93/C93 series. These rifles are still in use, there are not many kits, and spares are still commanding HK prices. The 30 and 40 round magazines are typically going for $30 to $35 each as opposed to the $4(G3) to $15(CETME) prices for 20 rounders used by the CETME and G3 rifles.