Posted on 11/20/2012 9:52:39 AM PST by MichCapCon
Well, it would depend on which side of the homeschool argument you're on.
For the easily offended or perpetually offended, ANY criticism of public schools, will do more harm than good. For Pete's sake, the mere existence of homeschoolers offends some. Doesn't matter what they say.
Unfortunate part for public schoolers is wintertime is right about most of what he(she) says.
Disclaimer: There is virtually no one with whom I agree 100%, so that comment is not any reflection on the content of wintertime's remarks.
Have a happy and blessed Thanksgiving.
There is no possible way, that a government teacher could teach in the same spiritual manner as my seventh grade nun, Sister Mary Victoria. They would be fired within the day. And....They would be forcing their Christian religious worldview on captive children who are in the godless government classroom under threat of police and court action. ( It isn't Christian to use force to impose one’s worldview on captive children).
Christian teachers who attempt to include some lukewarm Christian awareness in godless schools risk teaching the children that Christianity is merely one of several “points of view” of which they should be aware, or that worldviews, other than Christianity, are equally valid. They are not.
What are the students learning when Christianity is presented as, “Oh!...By the way, boys and girls, here's another point of view...a Christian take on the matter.” ? Would Christ spit this out of His mouth?
I attended parochial schools for 10 years and a Catholic university. My last two years of high school and graduate school were in secular ( godless) government schools.
I testify, from personal experience, that there is a HUGE difference between an education solidly founded on a Christian worldview ( specifically one denomination of Christianity) and secular government schools. In the faith-based schools **everything** was examined and lived through the lens of faith in God and His will. The writings of our church leaders were referred to frequently, all school policies and events were based on Christian principles, even in math and science classes. In the government schools, if God ever was acknowledged it was merely a nod or two in His direction.
And....One of the worst things a Christian teacher does is beguile naive parents into believing their child's godless school can't be that bad.
Hint: It is very bad when the secular teachers, secular curriculum, and secular textbooks convey to the child that godless secularism is the most valid way to live their life.
Hint: It is even worse when Christians sneak in Christianity or do so in a lukewarm manner. The risk here is that children will learn the false idea that Christianity is sneaky and lukewarm.
Unless the “helping with homework” is measured it is impossible to know if a so-called “good” government school is, indeed, good or not.
This “helping with homework” has never been measured!
Gee! Think about this. Consider the long commutes ( time away from the child) burdensome mortgages, second jobs, and both parents working. It is astonishing what parents will do to get their child into a so-called “good” school and no one has ever measured the “helping with homework” done by the parents in that so-called “good” school.
By the way....When I have questioned parents with academically successful children both the institutionalized and home educated children have parents who are doing the **same** amount of “helping with homework”. NO difference!
It wouldn't surprise me in the least.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
I daresay that Christ would not spit my efforts out of his mouth as they are done in seeking to glorify Him. The lukewarm-ness to which you refer (from Revelation) describes the [absence of] love found in the church of Laodicea. It is my very love for Him which I seek to manifest to the lost. That it is done in a godless institution, that it may reap little or no positive results, it nevertheless demonstrates to the Lord my love for Him. That it doesn’t measure up to your standard of a testimony is irrelevant. It may be that by testifying to the Lord in whatever way s/he can, the Christian teacher working in the government schools of today do just as much as any foreign missionary. Do you think missionaries working overseas simply go out and overpower one culture with another? No. They go out, join themselves to a people, live a Godly example before them and then, as occasion arises, are able to give a word, in season, concerning their faith. Paul would say, “But now, I show you a better way...”
Now, on the other hand, those that would withdraw from the spiritual warfare, attempt to set up their own little “private Eden” somewhere and then wait for the world to discover its eternal bliss somehow may be the ones who will have to give an account as to the burying of their 1 talent. That’s not for me to say; that’s up to the Lord. The Christian teacher is taking their 10...or 5...or 1 talent and trying to gain 10/5/1 more for the Lord. That you do not see this as anything but a negative is puzzling...or don’t you believe that the Lord can use even the (few) opportunities that present themselves in the public schools of this country to further His Kingdom through His instruments on school faculties? I have had more opportunities to share my faith in the schools where I have taught than most Christians have had—without being disobedient to the laws of the land or the Lord of Glory.
Teachers who agree to establish, support, and run godless schools are **willingly** creating spiritual wastelands. They agree, even seek, to run the godless government camps that spiritually starve children.
True missionaries wouldn’t do that.
True missionaries go to where souls needing to be saved are, be it in a godless school, any other godless place of employment, a godless neighborhood, a godless nation. Think about any workplace. Is it permissible for most Christians on the job-site to openly witness and share Christ with their co-workers? If they don’t are they betraying their Lord and Savior with a lukewarm testimony where their silence (which brings them job security) is more important to them than their Lord who loved them and gave Himself for them? Where do you work? Is it with your boss’s approval that you openly preach the gospel to your co-workers? If you are attempting to witness to others without your boss’s permission to do so, are you not “stealing” [time] from him/her? Are you not being disobedient to authorities if you are doing this behind your boss’s back? If you are not witnessing to your co-workers, are you not willingly helping to establish, and thus, support a godless workplace? No. What the Christian employee is to do is to work, and work in such a way so as to satisfy the demands of the job set forth by the employer and do all things as unto the Lord. You sound as if you are saying that a) the school system is somehow different from society at large (it is not—it is a reflection of society at large) and b) that parents are not the primary educators in the life of children (they are). We live in a fallen world. The schools in that world are part of a fallen system. Many of the people who fill these public schools are still in their sin. But this is true of every work place in America. The Christian educator, the Christian student is in the world, but not of the world. They can’t lose their salvation, but they can serve as salt and light to those who stand outside of the salvation found in Christ. No Christian I know is willingly trying to create spiritual wastelands. How can they if they have the Spirit of God in them! They create spiritual oases in a world that is already a spiritual wasteland. I don’t spiritually starve children. I give what, for some of them, might be the only spiritual food they will eat on any given day. It is not my job to save them, that’s God’s area of expertise. It is my job to sow seed.
Your anger and venom is misdirected. You are accusing the Christians who teach of perpetuating a godless, secular school system, of enabling “weak” Christian parents into believing that public schools are somehow doing a fine job (when all the evidence is clear for anyone to see that our schools are suffering terribly on account of the nation’s turn away from God). You have a misguided view of these teachers, who are trying to work within the system of the god of this age in an area where souls need saving or need to see an example of a Godly Christian testimony to buttress their faiths. They are not responsible for the mess of public schools any more than the foreign missionary is responsible for the chaos s/he finds on the mission field. They go to the field. They work within its bounds, establishing relations with the people and as opportunities arise, they minister Christ. I’d say that’s a pretty fair description of my work day. You also have a very weak opinion of these parents, who, doing what they can with the realities that they may be dealing with (Satan uses the economic realities to capitalism to squeeze even Christians into situations they might not otherwise choose) find they need to avail themselves of the feeble education offered in the local public school. They don’t need your condemnation, they need your prayer. Some of them might be “weak” (lacking discernment?) when it comes to spiritual matters, others might be attending a church meeting where error abounds...I don’t know. But if they are Christian, assume they realize the responsibility before God they have in the “training up” of their children, that they are the primary means of spiritual teaching for their children and that they, understanding the world in which they live, realize the need to “send [them] forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: [that they are to be] therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.”
All that being said, I home-school my children. I would encourage Christian parents to do likewise, if at all possible. I would love to see Christ-centered places of learning spring up all over this land. And, all that being said, I would probably still choose to teach in the public school. There are many, many kids that I’ve met and am meeting, whom I’ve gotten to know, whom I’ve grown to like who are heading toward a lost eternity because they don’t have a life-saving relationship with Christ Jesus.
Wow! That’s a dense block of text.
Later!
Ok based on the first sentence of your post:
Really? Missionaries should go where souls need saving?
Christians should go work in abortion centers, collect the money, and hand the instruments to the abortionist and clean up the mess afterward? Really? Hey! There are souls to be saved in almost any abortuary!
Should Christian teachers establish godless schools, teach a godless worldview, hand out and grade godless homework and textbooks, and force children to think and reason godlessly so that the child can cooperate in the godless classroom? Should they actually **work** in such and evil place or should they be doing all that is possible to rescue children and get them **out** of these pits of depravity?
An aborted baby flies directly into the arms of Jesus. A child in a godless school, being taught to think and reason godless may not lose his life but risks losing his eternal soul.
If abortion centers are evil and Christians picket outside, then maybe this would be the Christian thing to do in front of godless government schools.
I am not the one that seems angry or venomous here.
I am merely stating calm and carefully reasoned FACTS:
—Government schools are godless in their worldview.
—Children who attend these schools must think and reason godlessly just to cooperate in the godless classroom. How could it possibly be otherwise?
— Rational Opinion: I think that is an evil thing for a teacher to do a child.
—Rational Opinion: If Christians really cared about the eternal souls of children they would be doing everything legally and peacefully possible to close down the government school abominations and provide children with spiritually healthy alternatives.
—Rational Opinion: A Christian working in a government school is like a Christian working in an abortuary, except the eternal risks for the child who is taught to think and reason godlessly is infinitely worse!
Happy Thanksgiving!
You are accusing the Christians who teach of perpetuating a godless, secular school system,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The facts accuse them. That is exactly what they are doing if they teach in a godless school. They are cooperating with, establishing, and supporting schools that teach children to think and reason godlessly.
You said,
“Really? Missionaries should go where souls need saving?”
Answer:
Of course. What is the mission if not to seek to win souls for Christ.
You said,
“Christians should go work in abortion centers, collect the money, and hand the instruments to the abortionist and clean up the mess afterward? Really? Hey! There are souls to be saved in almost any abortuary!”
Answer:
Just abortion centers? Or should Christians go where called to go by God and preach the Gospel? Your straw man argument is false as it assumes the Christian teacher is NOT somehow providing his/her students with some presentation of the Gospel, be it a word, a kindness (that sets them apart from the other teachers), a silent testimony (which glorifies God and which serves to act as judgment against godlessness.) Part of my testimony involves looking back over a life that God was always working on, even before I got saved. I see God’s hand was always on my life even when, as a child I struggled through my parent’s divorce, an adolescence filled with typical American angst and rebellion, a period of wandering in the deserts of hedonism and materialism. When I was ready to graduate from college at the age of 28, I got saved. I had already opted to go into the teaching field, but now it was apparent to me that God was bringing me to a place where I could use a life that had once been filled with childhood pain and suffering and discontent and sorrow but was now “become new” for His glory, and my life began to make sense. “All things work together for good to those that love God to those who are the called according to His purpose.” His preparation for me as a teacher was to endure the very things none of us want for any child and then to use those lessons to help others. There are souls to be saved in schools.
You said,
“Should Christian teachers establish godless schools, teach a godless worldview, hand out and grade godless homework and textbooks, and force children to think and reason godlessly so that the child can cooperate in the godless classroom? Should they actually **work** in such and evil place or should they be doing all that is possible to rescue children and get them **out** of these pits of depravity?”
Answer:
Again, straw man. Christians do not establish godless schools. Godless schools have arisen as a result of a nation that has drifted from God and good Christian men and women did nothing to prevent this take over. I’m pretty sure that Christian teachers do not teach their students to think godlessly, to lay hold of a godless world view, to conform to this world. As a (godless) former co-worker of my once said, “learning is a subversive activity in the public school.” Since I teach in high school, I teach my children to think, not to remember, not to recite, not to blindly, numbly record information/conform to the accepted norm, but to think. Now, is my job frustrating? Yes. Am I facing an uphill battle? Yes, just like any Christian who is witnessing to the lost, just like any missionary who travels to another land and seeks to present Christ. Is my goal to change the school system? I would love to see that done, but it is not MY job. My job is to teach, not reform society or society’s schools. I play a part in these, but it is not MY job...It may be that it is yours...and your neighbor’s...and your community’s...But it is not [solely] mine.
Finally, my own children live in a world that could be likened to a “pit of depravity” (just as your children, should you have any) do. I “remove” them from it daily by presenting them with the Gospel, attempt to live a Godly life before them, “church” them. But, ultimately, there comes a point when they are free agents when it comes to spiritual matters pertaining to their own souls. They move around in a hopelessly fallen world. My job as “first educator” of my children is to introduce them to Christ and to offer them an education that is Christ-centered. Public schools don’t do that. So my kids won’t go there. Other Christian parents do not have that luxury. Would you withhold from these parents any means of support for their desire to have whatever of Christ they can have in the public’s school? That seems a bit harsh of you.
You said,
“An aborted baby flies directly into the arms of Jesus. A child in a godless school, being taught to think and reason godless may not lose his life but risks losing his eternal soul.”
Answer
Again, straw man here. Your assumption is that the Christian teacher is perpetuating godless thinking and reasoning in the classroom, as opposed to offering the alternative to such thinking and reasoning.
You said,
If abortion centers are evil and Christians picket outside, then maybe this would be the Christian thing to do in front of godless government schools.
Answer:
Agreed. But until such time as these protests develop (and it would be good if you were to alert all Freepers when and where the protest you are heading up outside your local school will be held—who knows, it could very well spark a national debate)...until such time, the voice of Christ (YOUR VOICE, and the voice of those who love the Savior) will be offered up in the form of Christian testimonies in the classroom that daily enter the fray at the front lines and wage spiritual warfare against principalities and powers and places of wickedness as God directs them.
Do not be surprised when teachers in our nation's socialist-funded, single-payer, godless, and compulsory K-12 schools are shunned for willingly seeking a job that teaches children to think and reason godlessly and puts children at risk of becoming comfortable with socialism.
Do not be surprised when Christian teachers in our nation's godless, socialist-funded, single-payer, and compulsory-use schools are no longer seen as resurrected Mother Teresas but as hypocrites.
You said,
—Government schools are godless in their worldview.
Answer:
I agree that, taken as a whole, schools are godless. But so is the world, if taken as a whole. Scripture confirms this.
You said,
—Children who attend these schools must think and reason godlessly just to cooperate in the godless classroom. How could it possibly be otherwise?
Answer:
I disagree. Children who attend here may be encouraged to “think and reason” godlessly (maybe they are really being encouraged not to think), but they don’t HAVE to think this way. There have been many instances in the media where we see teachers clamping down on Christian thought, but that does not happen in my classroom (or in the classroom of any bible-believing, spirit-filled Christian educator). I understand that public schools are, by and large, antithetical to godliness. I get it. So is the world. What should a Christian do? Withdraw? That’s not what the Great Commission challenges us to do.
You said,
— Rational Opinion: I think that is an evil thing for a teacher to do a child.
Answer:
To teach a child to be godless is evil, yes.
You said,
—Rational Opinion: If Christians really cared about the eternal souls of children they would be doing everything legally and peacefully possible to close down the government school abominations and provide children with spiritually healthy alternatives.
Answer:
Any proposals? Without them, this is naive, wishful thinking. You blame the Christian educator for exacerbating the situation, rather than withdrawing from these schools. I should think a Christian would praise God for there being ANY KIND of Christian influence in our public schools, while “the rest of us” (meaning you and your like-minded brethren, wintertime) figure out a way to transition these failing institutions into ones that work and which allow for the teaching of Christ as an essential part of the educational process (”The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge.”)
You said,
—Rational Opinion: A Christian working in a government school is like a Christian working in an abortuary, except the eternal risks for the child who is taught to think and reason godlessly is infinitely worse!
Answer:
This sounds good, but it is patently faulty logic. Of those that enter abortion clinics, half do not come out. Ever. Of those that enter a public school building, unless they meet with some physical death, they all come out...and they all have the opportunity to hear the Gospel and be saved. While they may not be getting prepared spiritually to meet the Lord (unless, perhaps, they’ve had a Christian teacher sowing seed in their lives—God waiting to send another so that He might get the increase), they have not been whisked off into eternity BY THE ACT of going to the public school.
I’m never surprised, whether it be by the godless acting sinfully, or Christians acting in the flesh and not the Spirit.
Rush Limbaugh is alerting the 20 million listeners that he has each day that the government K-12 schools are a fundamental threat to our culture and nation and have been for decades.
MarDav, when Rush starts talking about it, it's on its way.
You know, the more I read your posts the more I am convinced it is you that have a “world” view. Your reasoning is all of this life. How can we make our schools better, or, if not shut them down? How can we wrestle these godless places to the ground? How can we berate Christians who dare go to these godless places to work in and, by their very presence, seem to support the notion of godlessness.
What is missing all the while from your arguments is anything from you about whether or not your God can do a work in these places despite the very godless nature of them by using His chosen vessels (Christian teachers) to serve His purposes and prepare souls for salvation.
The question is this: Is God capable of using Christian teachers to reach the lost in public schools? Yes, or no? If yes, then, support those teachers, while you do whatever it takes to bring about the change in public schools we all long for. If the answer is no, then you do not know the God of the Bible.
I’m a big Rush fan...and I understand all that you are saying about public schools. If Rush or you or any Christian came into my classroom and saw what was going on, he would/you would/they would praise God.
Not sure “What is on the way,” but I know Who is on the way. And He said, “When I come, will I find any faithful?” In my classroom there will be one who has trusted in Him to get him through each and every day, who has asked Him to open up doors where the Gospel might be ministered, where one has daily asked Him for grace to live a godly life in a fallen world, in a fallen system, in a godless school in a God-loving/God-fearing classroom.
Of those entering an abortion clinic half of those souls will fly directly into the arms of Jesus.
Of those children ( from strongly active evangelical homes) who go to our nation's godless government schools, only 15% will be active in their faith 2 years after graduation from high school. This are children from highly active **Christian** homes. (By the way, 95% of homeschoolers from active evangelical homes, remain faithful. ) If Christian teachers in the godless government schools have sooooooo little influence over these evangelical children why would we expect them to have much influence with children from non-Christian homes?
When a child is taught to think and reason godlessly, as they must just to cooperate in the godless school, he risks losing his eternal soul.
My conclusion: It is evil to teach a child to think and reason godlessly. Government teachers must do this if they are to keep their job. Any Christian teacher who has worked more than a little time in the government schools has done this. They do it every time they hand out a godless textbook, follow the godless curriculum, and hand out godless assignments, and treat Christianity as if it were just another point of view.
Gee! Abortion destroys bodies. Government schools teach children to think and reason godlessly and the risk is destroyed souls. Which is worse? Should Christians be working in, cooperating with, or establishing either? Personally, I think not.
If abortion centers abort little bodies, and government schools risk condemning souls then they should be treated similarly:
—Christians should not work in either facility.
—Christians should do everything legally and peaceful possible to shut both of these abominations down.
—Christians should educate parents about the sin that accompanies sending their children into either facility.
—Christians should picket both.
Personally....I have made a decision. I will not have a government school worker for a friend. They are too evil, too stupid, or too much of a Useful Idiot to be my friend. I feel the same about abortion workers as well. This is a **personal** decision. Each much make that decision, or not,for themselves.
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