Posted on 12/26/2011 1:01:17 PM PST by Starman417
Nevadan posted - “”I think it is far more likely that Mr. Tebow is refusing to let fear of the world’s reaction keep him from practicing his faith openly.
Remember the example of Daniel who refused to stop praying publicly to God - even though it was against the law and got him thrown into the lion’s den. I think Tebow is being thrown into the proverbial lion’s den now.
If we pray for Tebow, it should be that he keep close to God publicly and privately because the world is after him to slip up - they would love to tear him down for some moral failure.””
Amen. Stay strong in your faith Tim, and know that in it, you strengthen many.
May God guide our course.
Tatt
Well, Maher was #ed by the devil. And believe it or not, Maher went back for more.
My dear Nevadan, I suspect that your note doesn't quite put Tim Tebow's posture or Bodleian_Girl's objection in the center of your cross-hairs. Let me suggest that if there is hypocrisy involved, it is not the (hopefully sincere) bowing pose after a little moment of personal success in a game. The hypocrisy would be in serving the appetites of worldlings on the day reserved by Christians for rest and worshipping the Lord.
The evidence of spiritual maturity is the denial of self, denial of sin as a master, and denial of dedication to worldly temporal pursuits at the wrong time. Whatever you think of the evangelist Billy Sunday, he abandoned a successful National League baseball career because of its worldly associations and scheduling of games on The Lord's Day. This was a clear (and costly) example of obedience to the Holy Spirit.
In comparison, Tim Tebow obviously can not yet be attributed with the quality of placing the Lord over his own wealth and the world's infatuation. It calls into question his regard of the Lord by dishonoring the Day of rest, worship, study, and true prayer. In an occupation that is not one that demands employment activity in service to The God and man on the Lord's Day, one may well ask as to whether The God hears such a "prayer" in activities that oppose His determined Will.
Tim has yet to shed his profane pursuits to quietly exhibit a mature attitude, and it seems that your (mis)application of the Holy Scripture likewise misses the mark.
Still, with sincere respect for your last point --
If we pray for Tebow, it should be that he keep close to God publicly and privately because the world is after him to slip up - they would love to tear him down for some moral failure.
The worldlings do, and are, showing that they correctly perceive a spiritual (not a moral) poor example by showing in his disobedience to The God's set of values and behavior. It sets a poor example to both (1) older "Christians" who will abandon the Lord's Day assembly in order to watch the Sunday game, and (2) the younger set who take their cue from their seniors. If Tim wants to play ball in opposition to the designated purpose for the first day of the week, at least let him do it without ostentation.
re: “Tim has yet to shed his profane pursuits to quietly exhibit a mature attitude, and it seems that your (mis)application of the Holy Scripture likewise misses the mark.”
The post I responded to condemned Tebow as a hypocrite for praying publicly. She used a passage taken out of context to do so from Matthew 6.
Now, as to Tebow’s playing football on a Sunday being a profaning of Sunday, I think you are being a bit premature in your condemnation of him. After all, is not the Sabbath Day really Saturday? Where in the New Testament does it say we are not to work or play on a Sunday? Where does the New Testament say that Sunday is the new Sabbath Day?
And, haven’t you read where Paul says in Romans 14:
“1 Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. 2 One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. 4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.
5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. 6 Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives for ourselves alone, and none of us dies for ourselves alone. 8 If we live, we live for the Lord; and if we die, we die for the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9 For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.
10 You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister[a]? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. 11 It is written:
“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will acknowledge God.’”[b]
12 So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God.
13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in the way of a brother or sister. 14 I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean. 15 If your brother or sister is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy someone for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let what you know is good be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18 because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and receives human approval.
19 Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a person to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother or sister to fall.
22 So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God.”
In other words, imardmdl, Tebow is not doing anything wrong in playing football on a Sunday. The only thing he’s violating is your cultural view about what we should or shouldn’t do on a Sunday - it’s not taught anywhere in the New Testament that we are to transfer the Sabbath Law restrictions (which was a Saturday) to a Sunday.
Have you ever mowed your lawn on a Saturday? If so, you violated the Sabbath law of not working on a Sabbath. Did you take out the garbage, paint a room, play a game on a Saturday?? The point is, Paul declares that these things are to be decided between you and God. If you want to honor God on a Sunday by not working or watching a football game, then do what you think is right. But, that’s between you and God.
As to me “misapplying” Matthew 6 and 10, please show me how I misapplied these scriptures to the issue at hand - which was, is Tebow a hypocrite for praying in public. My response was to show from Scripture that it was one’s motive that mattered to God. And, since we can’t see into Tebow’s heart, then we cannot judge him.
“In an occupation that is not one that demands employment activity in service to The God and man on the Lord’s Day, one may well ask as to whether The God hears such a “prayer” in activities that oppose His determined Will.”
Tebow’s employment contract stipulates that he has to work a lot of Sundays in the fall....we don’t know that he doesn’t often go to church before he has to show up for work. I’m sure he goes to church the other seasons of the year.
I have to work a lot of Sundays taking care of patients as an RN. Don’t forget what our Lord says “The sabbath was made for man not man for the sabbath!”
Tebow is ratings gold. Something Maher cannot relate to.
He is a side show geek getting attention by saying or doing outrageous things. He is not to be taken seriously.
Well actually.....
Daniel 6:10 Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed,
he went into his house;
and his windows being open in his chamber toward Jerusalem, he kneeled upon his knees three times a day, and prayed, and gave thanks before his God, as he did aforetime.
re: “Well actually.....
Daniel 6:10 Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed,
he went into his house;
and his windows being open in his chamber toward Jerusalem, he kneeled upon his knees three times a day, and prayed, and gave thanks before his God, as he did aforetime.”
Yes, it was in his house, but it was obviously a public enough display that people knew when and who he was praying to, and, apparantly it was a regular practice of Daniel’s to do so. The point is, Daniel was not in his “closet” (out of sight), and he was not going to stop his practice of praying to God - even though people could obviously see him - simply because the law said he was only to pray to King Nebuchadnezzar. His witness was that he was going to honor God in spite of the danger.
So, again, I submit it is the motive for why one does anything for God that matters to Him. If our motives are wrong, then no matter how noble or “righteous” it may seem to us - God sees the heart and knows why we are doing what we are doing.
That’s what Jesus was talking about in Matthew. The problem with the Pharisee’s was not where they prayed but WHY they prayed in public - the did it to get recognition of men. Jesus was using an exaggeration to make a point when he said pray in your closet - after all, do you literally only pray in your clothes closet when you pray??
So, if it is praying over a meal, helping someone in need, reading the Bible in public, responding in a post on Free Republic that has something to do with God, etc. - we must make sure we do it with the right motives.
I have to admit, I got way too verbose in the above to be easily understood. I intended to show, for instance, the nurse's work is needed and unavoidable on Sunday; whereas playing football does not fill a critical need on any Sunday.
Tebow’s employment contract stipulates that he has to work a lot of Sundays in the fall....we don’t know that he doesn’t often go to church before he has to show up for work. I’m sure he goes to church the other seasons of the year. (mdmathis)
The issue here is not whether or not he goes to church on Sunday, its when he chooses an occupation that requires him to often dishonor established Christian standards. And then can be criticized by worldlings, who know what the standards are, for making his religion posed and ostentatious. Does he kneel and thank God when one of his teammates scores?
I have to work a lot of Sundays taking care of patients as an RN. (mdmathis)
Of course, but your ministry to the ill can not be compared to employment in merely supplying diversion to the world.
Don’t forget what our Lord says “The sabbath was made for man not man for the sabbath!” (mdmathis)
Saying as gently as I can, your thesis here doesn't match the Scriptural context. Let me suggest that you find, read, and think through the several passages when Christ was reproved for certain Sabbath activities. He certainly was not upholding that just any work was permissible on a Sabbath. (Also, check out how many sabbaths the Israelites had.) Now, I'm not trying to "talk down" to you, but if you want to be right:
(1) Christ, being Man, was satisfactorily fulfilling The Law on behalf all men, under God's specifications for behavior under His covenant with Moses and David, and he scolded the Pharisees for their hypocrisy. In one case (Lk. 13:10-16) he was teaching in a synagogue when they brought someone for healing. He was not out playing football someplace.
(2) The football in view here is often played on the first day of the week, not on Sabbath. (Under the Law, you were not even supposed to leave your abode, or even cook meals on the seventh day.) Your quote is directed toward a Sabbath under the moral Law.
(3) But since Pentecost we, the People of the Way, are not under the ceremonial Law. Christians have customarily through the ages set aside and dedicated the first day for honoring the Lord's resurrection/ascension, for the remembering the Lord's death, for memorializing the imparting of the Holy Ghost on regenerated believers, for bringing tithes and offerings for the support of the ministries, and for congregating for public instruction, as well as for just rest and reflection -- not for indulging themselves in diversions and amusement. These are ordinances not to be neglected or disobeyed, if one wishes to please and honor The God. We are not encouraged to place selfish amusements on the same level as reasonable service (Rom. 12:1,2)
If you have come to believe that man was made for sports (and neglecting the assembly), and not sports for the man; and if you elevate Sunday sports as of equal value to your healing vocation as an excuse from churchly duties, you may need to recognize that your standards have become that of the world that is now largely governed by heathen. That has all happened since my days when, as a minister's son, I realized that my Dad's work on the Lord's Day was not trivial -- it was his calling. Oh, we might take a Sunday drive, or go for a picnic; but no stores were open - no bars, either. Then, Sunday was treated as a holy, a set-apart, a special day. But now, the elected and appointed government functionaries have become predominantly heathen in thinking, Sunday "Blue Laws" have been struck down, and the population has become spiritually "dumbed-down" (and their judgment likewise). So have most of the pulpits, AFIK -- there is no longer much restraint of any of the "carnal" desires. Sunday for most has become just another day, but as an entitlement off work. And no reproof against that kind of decadence is tolerated, eh?
With sincere regard --
The Witness of Jesus
He was condemned by the Pharisees for gathering food on the Sabbath, which technically speaking, was work and a violation of the fourth commandment. His response is to rebuke the Pharisees for being small-minded, for allowing scruples over technical details to cause themselves to miss the heart of God’s law.
“At that time Jesus went through the grain fields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, “Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath.
He answered ... I desire mercy, not sacrifice ...”
(Matthew 12:1-2,7)
So you know Tebow’s heart and have judged him to be a sabbath breaker and false to God?
The point is that Daniel didn’t go out in public to pray. He prayed IN HIS HOUSE.
I’m not against Tebow. I’m just against making a spectacle of prayer.
I guess you like the word "condemn" when you describe someone who disagrees with you, but you seem to have a proclivity of doing it to others, and not briefly. You do misapply Matt. 6:5-8. Jesus' admonition prescribes that one does his praying in private, not like the hypocrite who does it to be seen of men. Just the posing in public is the exact showiness that Jesus counsels against.
We do not need to know or judge what is in Tebow's mind -- he shows it to all in public display. God does know what is in his mind, and Tebow does not need to pose to be heard by God if he is truly grateful, according to your theory and mine. But Tebow needs to avoid any appearance of ostentation. The Holy Ghost says,"Abstain from all appearance of evil." (2 Thess. 5:22)
So do you, in contradicting my evaluation (not condemnation) of this young man's apparent spiritual maturity in his public display. For a greater understanding, you might compare Jesus' teaching in Matt. 6 with the parallel teaching in Luke 18:9-14 where "The publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as (his) eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner." Now, that displays humility in posture as well as in heart.
As to me “misapplying” Matthew 6 and 10, please show me how I misapplied these scriptures to the issue at hand - which was, is Tebow a hypocrite for praying in public. My response was to show from Scripture that it was one’s motive that mattered to God. And, since we can’t see into Tebow’s heart, then we cannot judge him.
I just did on Matt. 6. On Matt. 10:32-33, if the "praying posture" is meant to be a form of confession, testimony, or "silent preaching", well, that is not the way people are saved. They are saved by relating to them the commonly held precepts of The Faith, by the hrema, the spoken Word, by someone who is sent to do so (Rom. 10:8-17. That needs to be a person who has been discipled into spiritual adulthood. That is the confession Jesus is talking about in Matt. 10.
To remain undiscipled, to put your life and career before the call of Christ, is not His determined Will. (See the comparable passage in Luke 14, esp. verse 26.) Check out 2 Pet. 3:14-17, esp verse 16. There, where "unlearned" in the KJV, is, a little more precisely translated "undiscipled," not "ignorant."
In the Romans passage that you quote, the whole thrust is that the mature person not engage in practices which draw the weak believer away from The Faith. But exemplifying, amplifying, an capitalizing on the pursuit of amusement does just that, to the detriment of the maturation and ministry of the weak believers everywhere at the other end of the tube. To follow your advice, an elder would be wrong to even mount to the sacred desk and preach on Christian practices and shortcomings, hey? What kind of teaching is that? 1 Cor. 10:23,32 also speaks more directly to your use of Rom. 14 passage.
In contrast, since the beginning, the first day of the week has always been the day of general assembly, the day of being called out for the purpose of meditation and deliberation, the day one is expected to regularly and faithfully attend the Remembrance and public teaching. It was initiated by Simon Peter on the first Pentecost of the descent of the Holy Spirit and has not changed. While you are at Acts 20:7 and/or 1 Cor. 16:2, you might want to check the Greek and see what the words for "first of the week" really are. The teaching in Hebrews 10:23-31 remonstrates on absence from the assembly. The Scripture exhorts to exercise discernment, but I do not pretend to be an ultimate judge of condemnation in this matter: The God is, though, and I expect that he doesn't encourage making light of His Day of the week.
Now, I am fully aware that the NT day of assembly is not merely a displacement of the OT Sabbath, but I will say that it is more in import! When the appointed elders of the Body of Christ say, "This is the day of assembly!" -- it is like in the Army -- when the command comes to "Fall out!," you fall out! You don't go off fishing, or for your own selfish goals without a severe reprimand from the Post Commander.
To profane is to make something common, and that is exactly what Sunday football, and a busy Walmart "worship" service, wasting money and time on movies, and preference of other commonplace tasks do to obscure reverence for the Lord's Day and obedience for what the Lord meant for its use, that is profaning the day; and that is what involvement in sports to that extent does. It is denying the Lord's requests and refusing to confess Him before men. Watching/playing football on Sunday is not exactly denying one's self, the world, and Sin as a master, and taking up one's cross of the Glorious Testimony and following Him!
There is no hint here of questioning this young man's eternal destination -- only of one facet of his walk before the Lord and before the watching world.
Matthew 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
These lines apply to societies in which there is a respect for religious faith. In modern American society, however, religious belief is held in disrepute and is mocked by the influential. When someone like Tebow demonstrates his religious faith in public he is instead opening himself to criticism and mockery. His act is therefore not self-aggrandizing, as it would be in the time of Jesus, but a brave, selfless act of leadership. He provides strength and encouragement to others.
No, he himself has made his position clear. He judges himself through his associations and actions. And did you take the time to read what I wrote you about _a_ (not 'the') sabbath? Have you read and studied out this and the other passages I noted where Jesus was rebuked by the scrupulous Pharisees? If you have, you are a very quick study. But I think not, because you are reading into the passage something it does not supply.
(1) Here, the Sabbath of Matt. 12:1-8 was a second-first Sabbath (see Lk. 6:1-5 report of the same event), which was Pentecost Sunday of 7 Sivan, A. D. 31.
(2) It was not a Sabbath (7th-day one) in which preparing food was unlawful. (Lev. 23:16-17)
(3)The Pharisees were trying to extend the period of unlawful work into the first day of the work, and they misstated the law.
(4) Jesus' response was to point out their overreach of the Law. The Law did not say that no work was to be done on a Sabbath, only that no servile work (like Tebow's) was to be done.
(5) The dechaffing of the grain to assuage immediate hunger was not, for the disciples, servile work. It was necessary, seeing that no meal-preparation work had been taking place since the last Friday afternoon. This was Sunday.
(6) Even so, the passage only indicated that it was the disciples that were feeding themselves thusly on a day which they could do so lawfully. (see Lev. 23:4-22) Could it be that Jesus was nevertheless quietly fasting on this day of holy convocation?
(7) Note that this was not frittering away their time in temporal pursuits. The disciples were meeting with The Christ for instruction in things of eternal benefit. They were not playing matzos ball! (big grin)
(8) Note that they were not stealing someone else's grain, nor were they accused of that by the Pharisees. They were availing themselves of the provision of Lev. 23:22, the gleaners' portion.
(9) Just 6 days later, on a another, different (heteros) Sabbath, a seventh day Sabbath, Jesus healed a man in the synagogue where he was teaching, and was criticized by the Pharisees for that.
(10) In answering the false conjecture, he invoked the principle of explicit necessary labor (vs. implicit unnecessary pursuits that would take learners away from his teachings).
For the sincere Christian, the first day of the week is always a holy convocation, with a sound Scriptural backing, in which the Remembrance Supper is partaken, in which the Lord's resurrection is memorialized, and which is modeled after the first Christian Pentecost. It therefore is a day in which unnecessary labor is shunned so that God can get our full attention in at least one day of every seven-day cycle.
Is it that you and the Nevadan are trying to diminish the significance of this day of holy convocation? to the degree to where chasing unnecessary labor, entertainment, and foolish diversions can be of equal and justifiable merit as having fellowship with The God, the brethren, one's family, and quiet rest? Are you trying to do that by wresting the Holy Scripture to fit your hypothesis, your preferences, and the worldlings' standards? How does your theological approach here stack up with Peter's counsel? (2 Pet. 3:16-17) Is your doctrine of the Sabbath one which you learned under a wise discipler, or is it just an impression/opinion you have gained alone by a quick reading to prop up your thesis? without context and without guidance?
In questioning this, I am not condemning, just stating facts and asking questions. The facts do the judging, as they did in Jesus' exchange with the Pharisees.
And why are you determined, like the Pharisees, to try to bring down someone who is upholding legitimate Christian standards, and contending for The Faith? How much do you like Sunday football?
I'm done with this subject, and will not accept your rebuke on it. But with regard --
I don't think so. The Lord Jesus Christ doesn't need anyone to amend or soften his words, nor make an excuse for disobeying his commandments. The Holy, inspired, inerrant, verbally given verse says "But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly." and that is just what it means, in context and without embroidery.
What Tebow is exemplifying for others in, and encouraging them in, is incomplete obedience to the direct orders.
In the Great Commissioning of believer-disciples (Mt. 28:20), The Christ, in the third clause, issues the order to congregate the believer-disciplers together for public instruction to keep and faithfully transmit his commandments without change or addition. This is one of the chores for which the holy convocation of the first day of every week is set apart. Substituting Sunday football for this activity does not seem to be within the scope of the commandments, nor is ostentatious showing of religiosity. That is for a spiritual infant, not a warrior who is very aware of the conflict for His disciples' allegiance!
With sincere regard for your well-meant but ill-conceived comment --
That is for a spiritual infant, not a warrior who is very aware of the conflict for His disciples' allegiance!
The world is probably more awash with spiritual infants than at any time in our collective memories. They watch American Idol and Sunday football. Someone who can "connect" with them and encourage religious faith by example provides an important service. I understand your concern about the Sabbath, but think that too literal an interpretation would lead us to miss great opportunities to reach millions.
Several men in their twenties, a generation younger than me, have told me how much they admire Tebow. Through our conversations, I have a sense that none of them have a strong faith, but Tebow has them thinking. That is a very good thing in my book.
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