Posted on 05/16/2011 1:21:38 PM PDT by Hotlanta Mike
“There was no such thing as Medicare until 1965. It the person in question was born in 1890, he would have been 75 at the time. I have no idea whether everyone over 65 was automatically enrolled into Medicare. As far as SS is concerned, not everyone is covered, e.g., state and federal employees at the time.”
People are eligible for Medicare without qualifying for SS http://www.medicare.gov/MedicareEligibility/Home.asp?dest=NAV|Home|GeneralEnrollment#TabTop
but they have to apply for benefits: there is not automatic enrollment. More importantly, if you don’t qualify for SS, you have to pay a premium to enroll in Medicare. I don’t know about Part A (hospital benefits), but for Part B, those premiums go up 10% a year for every year you fail to sign up for Medicare, so by waiting 10 years, this guy would have had to pay premiums 100% higher than if he’d done so the very first year he was eligible for Medicare (i.e., 1966, when the program actually became operational).
So....either the guy qualified for SS, in which case it defies logic he would not have applied for entirely free SS benefits once eligible and later applied for heavily subsidized Medicare coverage once it became available.
OR the guy DIDN’T qualify for SS, in which case delaying his participation in Medicare would have been even more irrational due to the built-in 10% of premium penalty designed to encourage seniors to enroll BEFORE they get severely ill and need the benefit etc.
Neither scenario hangs together particularly well, IMHO. I’m not saying it’s IMPOSSIBLE, just not very probable etc.
“There was no such thing as Medicare until 1965. It the person in question was born in 1890, he would have been 75 at the time. I have no idea whether everyone over 65 was automatically enrolled into Medicare. As far as SS is concerned, not everyone is covered, e.g., state and federal employees at the time.”
People are eligible for Medicare without qualifying for SS http://www.medicare.gov/MedicareEligibility/Home.asp?dest=NAV|Home|GeneralEnrollment#TabTop
but they have to apply for benefits: there is not automatic enrollment. More importantly, if you don’t qualify for SS, you have to pay a premium to enroll in Medicare. I don’t know about Part A (hospital benefits), but for Part B, those premiums go up 10% a year for every year you fail to sign up for Medicare, so by waiting 10 years, this guy would have had to pay premiums 100% higher than if he’d done so the very first year he was eligible for Medicare (i.e., 1966, when the program actually became operational).
So....either the guy qualified for SS, in which case it defies logic he would not have applied for entirely free SS benefits once eligible and later applied for heavily subsidized Medicare coverage once it became available.
OR the guy DIDN’T qualify for SS, in which case delaying his participation in Medicare would have been even more irrational due to the built-in 10% of premium penalty designed to encourage seniors to enroll BEFORE they get severely ill and need the benefit etc.
Neither scenario hangs together particularly well, IMHO. I’m not saying it’s IMPOSSIBLE, just not very probable etc.
“There was no such thing as Medicare until 1965. It the person in question was born in 1890, he would have been 75 at the time. I have no idea whether everyone over 65 was automatically enrolled into Medicare. As far as SS is concerned, not everyone is covered, e.g., state and federal employees at the time.”
People are eligible for Medicare without qualifying for SS http://www.medicare.gov/MedicareEligibility/Home.asp?dest=NAV|Home|GeneralEnrollment#TabTop
but they have to apply for benefits: there is not automatic enrollment. More importantly, if you don’t qualify for SS, you have to pay a premium to enroll in Medicare. I don’t know about Part A (hospital benefits), but for Part B, those premiums go up 10% a year for every year you fail to sign up for Medicare, so by waiting 10 years, this guy would have had to pay premiums 100% higher than if he’d done so the very first year he was eligible for Medicare (i.e., 1966, when the program actually became operational).
So....either the guy qualified for SS, in which case it defies logic he would not have applied for entirely free SS benefits once eligible and later applied for heavily subsidized Medicare coverage once it became available.
OR the guy DIDN’T qualify for SS, in which case delaying his participation in Medicare would have been even more irrational due to the built-in 10% of premium penalty designed to encourage seniors to enroll BEFORE they get severely ill and need the benefit etc.
Neither scenario hangs together particularly well, IMHO. I’m not saying it’s IMPOSSIBLE, just not very probable etc.
“He had a job at Baskin Robbins two years before that SSN was ever issued.”
Thanks for these particulars. I knew he had some sort of teen job, but couldn’t remember timing. B-R is a major national corporation. I don’t picture them paying an employee under the table to avoid having to pay SS taxes. Which is to say that if Barry got a paycheck from them, the odds are overwhelming he would have need an SSN. But if he’d gotten a legitimate SSN 2 years earlier, then what’s the motivation for obtaining an illegal one 2 years later? That’s where I get hung up in these speculative theories that are flying about.
“I don’t know if he ever received checks, he may have signed up for medical benefits because he was old. When he died the bills stopped coming. There is no evidence that Barry applied for that number, just someone did.”
As someone else noted, he may not have been eligible for SS, so may never have received checks. But anyone over 65 can obtain Medicare and if he didn’t qualify for SS, then the only motivation for seeking SSN at age 87 would have been to obtain Medicare.
“Who files the death certificate with SS? If the family does then there would be no one to file it.”
If he were receiving medical care, then it’s not very likely he died without a death certificate, as it does NOT require the involvement of the family. More importantly, “The failure of a physician to immediately submit the required form to the government (to trigger issuance of the death certificate) is often both a crime and cause for loss of one’s license to practice.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_certificate
Any medical provider signing the death certificate would have known of the guy’s Medicare eligibility and hence his SSN. SSN has been a required field on death certificates since 1939 http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/series/sr_04/sr04_028.pdf (see Table II).
“He claimed he worked at some ice cream shop as a kid (under the table?)”
An earlier poster said he worked at Baskin-Robbins and in my response I have summarized reasons it is HIGHLY unlikely he worked under the table for such a major corporation. I concur that as community organizer, he may not have needed SSN, but I still can’t get past the fact that if he’d already gotten SSN for his B-R job—however menial it might have been—he had no need/motivation to secure a second SSN fraudulently.
It depends on how it was obtained. If the person was in a nursing home, and had no relatives, the administrator essentially had power of attorney over the records. If the administrator was “selling” numbers that could not be traced, she just wouldn’t report the number to SS. Or it could have been someone the local SS office on the take. A file comes across the desk that has no living relatives, it just isn’t entered into the death index. As with my case, it shows entering a name into the death index is a separate process from stopping the SS payments and paying out the death benefit. Even SS says that they do not have a death record for all persons; therefore, SSA does not guarantee the veracity of the death index file.
There was also another motivation. In 1977 a law was passed that required recipients of government aid to report the names and SS numbers of everyone living in the household. If this person were , for example, living with a daughter that was getting some form of welfare payment, he would have needed a number in order for her to continue receiving aid.
“Obama may have needed their help after leaving Oxy - where he likely attended as a foreign student. Hence the 999-99 social security numbers from that period.”
This offers a more plausible scenario in that it explains why he might have needed a new SSN even after already having acquired one as a teen.
“He was living a couple of blocks from Ayers at the time.”
Right, which is why including Madelyn Dunham in this scenario doesn’t make sense to me. Ayers already had demonstrated his contempt for the law and ability to evade it by securing fake IDs at will. He would have been well-positioned to assist Obama if such help was needed. I can’t imagine BHO actively seeking help from grandma to undertake this potentially dangerous activity—i.e., risking her job, if not actual jail time.
But even if this scenario is correct, I’m confused about timing. The card was applied for in 1977, well before BHO “needed” a new card or Bill Ayers was remotely connected to his life. It did not get actually USED until 1985—several years after the 1981-82 time period you’ve alluded to. I assume Bill Ayers was not in the habit of generating fake IDs for fun, that some “need” would have triggered the effort to secure a new SSN for BHO. Perhaps Columbia itself required an SSN for its own records even if BHO wasn’t an employee etc. But if the card was secured and USED in 1981-82, I don’t see why the records of BHO’s residences in connection with that card don’t start until 1985.
You’ve potentially helped resolve the “motivation” problem related to BHO’s already having gotten a legitimate SSN as a teen. But there’s still unresolved timing issues that I think any adequate theory of this case would have to address for it to receive widespread acceptance.
“If Ayers generated a fake identity for Obama in the early ‘80’s, no Madelyn or elderly gentleman born in 1890’s speculation is needed!”
Unfortunately, this detailed description raises more questions than it answers. Note the M.O. of securing a fake ID. Unless I’ve completely misunderstood Ayers’ method, it was: 1. Find a BABY who died early and never applied for SSN. 2. Apply for SSN using that baby’s name. Suddenly you are on paper a different person with a legitimate SSN. But the key is to find a baby whose current age would be roughly similar to yours. Otherwise, there’d be a risk that someone might notice you are not an 87-year-old, but instead a 20-something.
So if BHO were using Bill Ayer’s standard method, the last person in the world he would have used is the SSN of an 87-year old. If Bill Ayers had more than a hundred IDs of babies born in 1940’s and 1950’s, how hard would it have been to obtain one of a baby born in 1961 (or used one of the 1950’s babies for BHO’s new SSN)?
Thus, a theory that “sort of fits” at first glance seems to fall apart upon more serious inspection. I appreciate all the replies various posters have offered to address the things that puzzle me, but none of the responses provides a complete theory devoid of these bothersome inconsistencies etc.
“I can only attribute these anomalies to the extensive cover-up and sanitizing of Obama’s records that have obviously gone on for many years.”
This is a completely unfalsifiable hypothesis. Somehow, this exensive cover-up managed to suppress a relatively small number of instances in which the card was used prior to 1985 but leave for investigators to discover a HUGE number of instances in which a flagrantly illegal SSN was associated with residences KNOWN to be associated with BHO.
That’s not a terribly effective cover-up strategy, is it? How is it that the same bunch who have been 100% effective in completely suppressing a very long list of various childhood/education/birth records for BHO have been so inept in suppressing this SSN trail? It’s not good to have a theory which simultaneously relies on painting Obama’s enablers as geniuses (to explain one set of facts) and bumblers (to explain another set of facts). Because it allows you to literally “explain away” every single inconsistency that might otherwise be used to distinguish plausible hypotheses from those that are implausible etc.
Lets see the college records and then it can be settled. With enough (Saudi) money, anyone can get into Harvard.
As for the only 8 years old comment to Hotlanta Mike.
Oh - you mean the first time the WUO was killing and bombing around NYC. You mean with Bill Ayers girlfriend at the time was killed along with others making a bomb with shrapnel and nails to kill officers and their spouses at Fort Dix in the early 70s.
By 1979 Bill Ayers had turned himself in and they was in class in NY by 1981. Obama was 20, not 8 years then. And only after being in NY about a month the WUO and BLA started their 1981 rampage in September.
“Let me explain. Madelyn would have sought out a SSN for Obama that belonged to a very old gentleman who conveniently had obtained his SSN late in his lifetime.”
As I pointed out in a reply to someone else, this actually is the exact opposite of the strategy successfully used over 100 times by Bill Ayers to create false SSNs based on dead BABIES.
“The old folks who transitioned into SS, like my parents who were farmers, had no need for SS until they were eligible to draw SS or needed Medicare/Medicaid) So it is not that unusual that the old gentlemen did not need it until he needed Medicare/Medicaid assistance.”
If a person “needed” such assistance, it’s surprising they would voluntarily elect to pay what amounts to a 100% premium penalty by waiting until 87 to apply for Medicare benefits for which they’d become eligible more than a decade earlier. I regard that as “unusual” even though it obviously is not impossible.
“Madelyn knew the aged gentleman would likely soon die and this would make his SSN the perfect candidate for a con artist trying to establish a fake identity for her young son.”
In that time frame, life expectancy of someone surviving to age 87 was about 6 years. http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr58/nvsr58_21.pdf Barry’s “need” for a fake SSN must have been substantially lacking in urgency for Madelyn to have calculated he could wait this long. But if it’s so lacking in urgency, then WHY is she risking prison time assisting him in this fabrication?
“She knew the 1977 date of application for the SSN would fit nicely with Obama’s age of about 15 years and the gentleman’s death would then mean that there would be no overlap in use between Obama and the gentleman. That is why Obama held of on using the SSN until the gentleman died and some time had past after his death.”
This is what I still don’t get. The gentleman AND BHO (or Madelyn on his behalf) simultaneously applied for cards in 1977? It’s certainly possible that a bureaucracy like SSA would have failed to connect the dots, but how could Madelyn be certain in advance this would happen? And if duplicate applications WERE detected, she’d end up in jail. This strikes me as an implausibly large risk for a bank VP to take no matter how much she loved her grandson.
“If this person were , for example, living with a daughter that was getting some form of welfare payment, he would have needed a number in order for her to continue receiving aid.”
Thanks. Did not know this. His not needing the SSN for his own benefits lowers the odds of a death certificate being issued with his SSN, although not by much. As a practical matter, most 87 year olds don’t die without some medical attention (even if they didn’t need Medicare to pay for it) and the penalties involved in an MD failing to file a death certificate are too severe to make it probable that this man’s doctor failed to do so in his case (and even if this happened in reality for this particular individual, I still don’t understand how Madelyn either could have relied on this to make her plan work without detection or how she could have found out about this in order to set her plan into motion).
3/6/1970 WUO Bomb goes off in NY Townhome. Killing WUO members and Bill Ayers then girlfriend. Bomb used shrapnel to maximize killing effect and was meant for soldiers and their spouses at Fort Dix dance.
1978 Bill Ayers comes out from hidding since time of 1971 bombing.
6/1/1979 Obama graduates from HS
9/1/1979 - 5/31/1981 BHO II Occidental college in LA. Known as Barry Soetoro then. Changes name to Obama while at Oxy. Occidental was known as “Moscow of southern California”.
6/15/1980 SADS signs Hawaii divorce papers. This is possible reason for Barry Soetoro changing name to Barak Obama. It is also possible reason Barry could no longer keep going to college as foreign student since his foreign father was now divorced from his mother.
7/30/1980 Date that Obama supposedly filed out and filed Selective Service Card. Uses address 1617 S. Beretania Honolulu Hawaii 96826.
7/26/1981 Frank Marshall Davis dies. FMD was mentor to Obama.
8/17/1981 State Department issues rules for Pakistan travel - requires 30 day Visa. It is available at airport.
9/1/1981 BHO II goes to NY according to narrative story
9/21/1981 Bombing of ERU in Schenectady. Suspected of being BLA or WUO.
10/20/1981 May 19 Communist Group (fomer WUO) and Black Liberation Army (BLA) members rob Brinks truck killing 2 police officers and guard.
8/1/1982 Obama first cousin Raila Amolla Odinga indicted for coup attempt in Kenya.
9/1/1982 - 5/17/1983 Obama at Columbia as uncovered in investigations. No record of Obama at Columbia before this.
Interesting point in time for people who would later become critical point in Obama’s life. At a time where it is unknown where Obama was during this time. It starts with former WUO members geting active in September of 1981 and ends with his first cousin attempting a coup of a major African country. Interesting times for a young man.
Best theory yet. And CT is close to NY so the graveyards are accessible to NYorkers for visits. Yup. You got it.
Filing a death certificate doesn’t inform SS.That has to be done separately. As far as Madelyn goes, the group of friends of hers were avid Communists ( Frank Marshall Davis being one ). Hawaii in the early 60’s was a hotbed for Communists. I am sure they had contacts with people who knew how to do this.
“The card was applied for in 1977, well before BHO “needed” a new card or Bill Ayers was remotely connected to his life.”
The card was applied for and issued around March 1977 to an individual born in 1890. Obama later stole the number from this individual...dead men/women tell no tales???
“It did not get actually USED until 1985—several years after the 1981-82 time period you’ve alluded to.”
The first time is in use is around 1986, the time that Obama goes to work in Chicago. New life/new/name/new number for employment???
The number shows up on Obama’s Selective Service Registration, however, that appears to be a forged document (circa 2006).
“I can only attribute these anomalies to the extensive cover-up and sanitizing of Obama’s records that have obviously gone on for many years.”
This is a completely unfalsifiable hypothesis. Somehow, this exensive cover-up managed to suppress a relatively small number of instances in which the card was used prior to 1985 but leave for investigators to discover a HUGE number of instances in which a flagrantly illegal SSN was associated with residences KNOWN to be associated with BHO.
That’s not a terribly effective cover-up strategy, is it? How is it that the same bunch who have been 100% effective in completely suppressing a very long list of various childhood/education/birth records for BHO have been so inept in suppressing this SSN trail? It’s not good to have a theory which simultaneously relies on painting Obama’s enablers as geniuses (to explain one set of facts) and bumblers (to explain another set of facts). Because it allows you to literally “explain away” every single inconsistency that might otherwise be used to distinguish plausible hypotheses from those that are implausible etc.
Unfortunately for Obama this stolen SSN is the one he is still using today, including the filing of his federal tax returns.
He is counting on the SSA Director to protect him from FOIA requests/investigations.
How can you account for all the new SSN’s that were apllied for in 2008 as per Susan Daniel’s?
Barack and Michelle are the new Bonnie and Clyde. Instead of robbing banks however, they are robbing our national treasury!
Thanks for the timeline BC6...
not to mention that Obama even claimed not to have a US passport until he became a US Senator from IL. How did he travel internationally until that time???
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.