Posted on 07/31/2010 6:25:47 PM PDT by jdirt
Isn't Molokai the site of the famous leper colony?
BTW, I am engrossed in this thread. Thanks for the ping, LucyT.
It did have a leper colony but I think it wasn’t existing any more by then. But there was very little at that time (and not much more now) than some cattle ranches and a bunch of local Hawaiians. It’s hard to think of any reason why people who didn’t already live on Molokai would go there for any reason at all. It’s not scenic like Maui. Probably didn’t hardly have any hotels then either. Doesn’t make a bit of sense.
Obama would probably be removed by the military, after a clarification of the definition by the Supreme Court, the method employed by Honduras when their President blatantly violated his constitution. It is reasonable, though it "depends upon what is is", that the recent Obama appointees to the court would recuse themselves, since they will lose their appointments if the framer's understanding is upheld. It is unlikely that Obama would be sent to a neighboring country, as will Zelaya. It appears the civilian Obama has committed a number of felonies as a fundraiser, and by using multiple social security numbers. He may actually have stated that he was a natural born citizen, though that is not at all clear. Only two states, Hawaii and Arizona required such a declaration, and Nancy Pelosi signed those declarations for the private corporation, the Democratic Party. Obama, on his own web site, told us he was a “Native born citizen of the U.S.” A “native born” citizen is born on our soil, but not necessarily of citizen parents.
If someone can find evidence of nonnative birth, it may be easier for the public to accept Obama’s removal in this period of virtually complete silence on the law by “The Ruling Class.” The last public officials to openly talk about the concept of jus sanguinis contained in Article II Section 1 of our Constitution were all 100 U.S. Senators in April of 2008 when they agreed with Senator Pat Leahy who said “I believe that someone born of two citizen parents is a natural born citizen.” He was referring specifically to John McCain, in the ploy to imply the John McCain was eligible, thus to silence any questions about Obama’s eligibility. Obama, not born of two citizen parents by his own admission, but was a cosponsor of Senate Res. 511. There is an implied assumption that the public is too ignorant of our laws, and incapable of logical thought. We can be cowed with the loud and self important proclamations of the media that questioning Obama’s eligibility makes us fools, rather like questioning global warning, or that carbon dioxide is a pollutant, or that redistribution will make us secure and improve the quality of our lives. The difference with eligiblity is that our framer's documents cannot easily be scrubbed.
Cases in our Supreme Court are still available. Pat Leahy scrubbed his government website of the Senate Res. 511 documents, but there is a Congressional Archive. Many of us saved the press announcements of the McCaskill-Leahy Resolution, and the previous Senate Bill 2678, Feb 2008, also to provide cover for McCain; a “Children of Military Families Natural Born Citizens Act”, to “To clarify the law and ensure that children born to United States citizens while serving overseas in the military are eligible to become President.” Any doubt who they had in mind? Ask yourself why? Then wonder if McCain was a party to the fraud. (For those new to the topic, John McCain was sued, and had many inconclusive congressional hearings about his eligibility because he was not born on our soil; he was born in Panama, Colon Hospital, in 1936. Even if he had been born on the Coco Bolo base, as some assert, it was not territory over which the U.S. has sovereignty. I sounds unfair, but no amendment to change Article II Section 1 has passed, in 25 attempts). It seems very likely that John McCain's ambition has enabled someone dangerous to our survival to act as president. From the concealment of any real proof of Obama’s eligibility, and the reality of his alien birth, some very shrewd people have planned very carefully, using the fact that no president was every suspected of failing the natural born citizen provision. In hindsight, one president, Chester Arthur, was discovered by Leo Donofrio to have concealed his past, having been born as well of a British subject; Arthur, like Obama, concealed his family documents and burned them just before his death.
Good catch. If it was believed this paper dump was going to answer lingering questions, they won’t. But, maybe that was the intent all along.
Father Damian’s colony?
Notice how all three paper dumps came on the same day..from different requests an different agencies...hmmm
Those documents do shed much additional light on what was going in those years for them.
It does seem that Lolo married Ann just before he was about to get booted out of the country. This was in March 1965 in Molokai, a part of Maui County.
Naturally, after the marriage she went to visit her new in-laws in Indonesia and see her husband’s home. This was the purpose for her passport application which was issued in late July 1965.
I think little Barry was included on her 1965 passport, and that she and Lolo took him with them to Indonesia then. The reason I think he was included on her 1965 passport is that in her 1968 August renewal she initially wrote “Barack Hussein Obama (Soebarkah)” under the “include children” probably just copying what she did in 1965, but then changed her mind and crossed him out. They probably figured that when the time came for them to need it, they would get Barry his own passport, either US (in which case there should be a passport application for Barry dated sometime prior to when he was sent to Hawaii to live with his grandparents, to be discovered under FOIA) or they got him an Indonesian passport, if Lolo had indeed adopted him as I suspect.
Their 1965 visit to Indonesia probably only lasted a few weeks, and they returned to Hawaii in time for the school year at UofH.
Then, apparently in 1967, Ann and Barry traveled to Indonesia to live permanently with Lolo there. Barry probably traveled on Ann’s 1965 passport which as I said probably included Barry on her passport.
In the papers in which Lolo seeks to get a waiver to allow him to stay in the US, Barry is referred to as his step-child, not his own adopted child. Apparently this was sufficient to be considered his child for purpose of the INA, as we read in the correspondence. So this suggests that he was not adopted in Hawaii before the time of the waiver correspondence. Of course, this one reference cannot be considered conclusive on this point.
I think the most likely scenario is that Lolo adopted him for purposes of Indonesia law when Ann and Barry joined him in Indonesia in 1967 to live there permanently. If Barry was going to be in his household in Indonesia, Lolo would want the rights of a father over him.
Some people would object that Barry was over 5 years old then. But maybe Lolo simply stated that Barry was under 5 on the affidavit or other document he may have submitted to the Indonesian authorities to acknowledge Barry as his adopted child in late 1967. That would explain why on Jan 1, 1968 on Barry’s school registration his last name was “Soetoro” and his citizenship was “Indonesian.”
Also, the mysterious “Soebarkah” name at the end of Barry’s full name may have something to do with this. Maybe there was an Indonesian clerk helping Ann write out the application and misheard Barry’s last name of Soetoro for Soebarkah, but that anyway they decided to cross it all out and not put him on her application.
And, as we have discussed before I don’t think the Indonesian bureaucrats would have been sticklers for the age of Barry:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/2549919/posts?page=143#143
And I don’t think what Lolo may or may not have done in Indonesia regarding adopting Barry would ever have been communicated to the US authorities and if they did get him an Indonesian passport, they probably did not tell the US authorities, for the reason that they may have wanted to preserve the flexibility for Barry to have a US passport and be a US citizen. There is certainly nothing in the correspondence here to show that Lolo and Ann were not capable of telling two versions of a story to two different countries if they thought it to their advantage.
It would be interesting to know what passport Barry used to return to the United States to live with his grandparents. Indonesian or US?
You bring up a very good point. Those that even know there is a question as to where Obama was born believe it is simply a matter of an American birth, or not. Even some on this site argue that point. The NBC argument is out there but only really discussed by those of us who follow this issue closely, legal circles and those involved on the ground.
Americans would have a much better chance at accepting his removal from office if it was shown he was not born in the United States. There will be many people, especially on the left, who will argue it should not matter - that is where the fight will be.
It’s a lost cause to think a majority of Americans would understand or could be shown to understand how, even if he was born in Hawaii, Obama does not meet the qualifications as set forth in the Constitution - and regardless of his mothers status as a citizen, SAD could not transfer NBC status to her son.
Yes.
When I lived in Pearl City around 1980-81, I sometimes saw lepers while riding the bus. There was a home for them around there; they had been moved from Molokai some time before.
Marriage of convenience where Lolo could establish himself as an American citizen with all the benefits that come from that status while SAD could immerse herself even further into Cultural Anthropology.
The more I read (or try) these documents the more questions they seem to raise.
How could there have been a need to redact any information in the records since both parties are deceased. There is no expectation of privacy once someone is dead.
I raised this up-thread - why isn’t Obama mentioned by name or with any identifying information in any of the documents? What was used to determine his birth-date and residency? Would there be a need to determine a minor child’s citizenship if they are the child of an American citizen? Could there have been a question about that?
Why did SAD list to different dates of marriage to Lolo?
We’ll be going over these papers for months trying to determine what they really tell us, and more importantly, what they don’t.
I like your summary, only point of contention I might have is if they went to Indonesia in 1965-did they have enough money? I think they did and that their later pleading poor was just another ploy to get a waiver and benefit for Lolo to stay in the USA. I agree they would tell whatever they thought they needed to to benefit themselves.
An application by Stanley Ann in 1965 would show a lot more info. Apparently someone got to it first, which looks like a crime to me.
"National Security" is an exception to FOIA, and it's applied very broadly in practice.
Here it could apply to Stanley Ann's intention to work at the American Embassy in Indonesia, and to Soetoro's ties to the Indonesian military. Just a guess.
They do list b(6), unwarranted invasion of privacy for the redacted paragraphs.
When reading them I was thinking these paragraphs may have been more detailed discussions of her supposed medical ailments. But as you point out, she is no longer living.
Unless Obama Sr. was American, then there is nothing to debate. Obama the usurper is *not* 100% American, which is required for the Office of the Presidency. BHO could have been born on the steps of the White House, but that doesn’t change the fact that one of his parents held allegiance to another country.
I agree the impression one gets from the documents is that they would say whatever they needed to say to get a result they wanted.
Interesting that the exchange student center seemed to be against Lolo getting a waiver and thought he was intentionally trying to wiggle around the rules and do an end run around them.
Also it is ironic to hear Lolo complain about the communists in Indonesia. One wonders if he fully realized in the early years that he had married a full-blown red diaper baby. Or maybe he was just stating things that he thought an American state department official would want to hear. Ann surely must have viewed such people as presumptive anti-communist jingoist imperialists.
Just because the passport was valid for 5 yrs doesn’t mean she got the first one 5 yrs earlier. Remember that her parents were probably “travelers,” i.e. communists, and they did move four times during their daughter’s childhood. Also, the FBI kept a file on Gramps, but the records were destroyed in 1997. This was no ordinary family.
The incompetence of our government is sometimes too much to ponder. Our own US State Department abbreviated Arizona as AR in their letter of response. Go see for yourselves.
*sigh*
They don't have her records before 1965 !!
I am sure we have had presidents who were born to unwed parents. But if you mean something different, then it makes sense.
If Obama Sr. was indeed married to his wife Kezia in Kenya in January 1957, following which their son Roy was born in 1958, then Obama Sr.'s marriage to Ann was bigamous and void under Hawaii law. That would make Obama Jr. illegitimate.
Obviously, these circumstances were entirely outside the control of Obama Jr.
I am not sure there is any other president as to which there has even been an issue of illegitimacy, including Bill Clinton. With the exception of Obama, historians and biographers have gone exhaustively through the background of all of our presidents. Is there some president in particular you were thinking of?
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