An Agnostic’s View of Society and the World

Grand Rants ^ | 10-30-09 | Alan Speakman

[Hank Kerchief]

“...reality for me is a world that is indeed based only on ‘faith...’”

I understand “faith” to be whatever one assents to be true. I have not problem with “faith,” but faith requires some basis. What is the basis of your faith?

By the way, I have no interest in changing any view you have, but am curious about what the basis of your challenge to my views (which you know almost nothing of) is. If you are certain you are right, what do you care what other’s have “faith” in. I don’t, so long as they “stay out of my way” and “leave me alone.”

Hank

[Speaks]

Thanks for the guidance. I assure you that I’m neither a troll nor a ring-and-run, and neither is the author of the article I posted.

[SonOfDarkSkies]

faith requires some basis.

And a faith for which you would give up everything even your life, requires a very special basis. I would say that that kind of faith or, better said, that kind of calling requires something which is greater than all other experience, ambition, and desire/hope combined...because that is the price paid for it.

What is the basis of your faith?

That is difficult to put into words. As I said in the prior paragraph, it is best explained as a calling (and not in the traditional way...the way in which one might be called to the practice of the law or medicine or a career in the military or education).

I have a memory of the general period in which it began to occur to me that there was a powerful interior voice that was speaking to me. It was a voice similar to what one hears from their conscience. It wasn't demanding but patient and quiet.

It wasn't an extension of lessons from my parents, school, or even church because it offered a path which was much more severe than my parents or authority figures had mentioned. And indeed over time, that same voice, telling me of more and more developed lessons as to how I should go about living, seemed to diverge from everything I learned in church and school and from my parents and friends (a divergence not in general direction but in the degree--stricter--and texture, if that makes sense).

Over time (and this is something I find to be a common experience among many other folks) I realized that the voice that I came to love more than anything else and more than anyone else...was the person we know as Jesus or Yeshua.

One day I awoke (or I guess I should say that I increasingly awoke) to find that I had given my life to Him even when I tried to go in other directions.

In my own case, I have made MANY decisions which were at odds with that voice...but in the end, that voice eventually brought me back to an awakening. When the awakens occurred, I had a choice (actually it was no choice because I had already decided...just forgot that I had) to return to the life of faith or continue along a path of divergence.

For example, I choose to go to Wall Street after grad school, thinking that I could still somehow live a life consistent with that profound inner voice, that I could find a common ground...WRONG!

After 20 years (of surprising success) I had another awakening. I reviewed my life and found that I had slowly but profoundly slipped off the Path.

I wish I could say it was my strength of character that caused me to make a complete u-turn, but that would not be the case.

My devotion to the same "voice" gave me a choice, but no more a choice than a young child has to obey parents, family, and friends that he loves.

So there you have some of the larger points of the basis of my "faith".

Hope it makes some sense!

[Hank Kerchief]

I am very hesitant to respond to your last. Understand, I am very serious about not wishing to change your mind about anything.

Just because you wanted to have a little fun on the eve of All-Hallows-eve, you might like to consider this:

Take all your words, then understand that at the end, there are many others who find the “voice they come to love more than anything else and more than anyone else” is Vishnu or Bramha or some revered ancestor.

I am very suspect of anyone who claims an, “inner voice,” because, as you must know, an endless string of very evil people have perpetrated the most evil and atrocious things following such voices. Perhaps you can explain how one determines which inner voices to believe and which to shun. Please do not expect me, or any other person, to accept “feelings” as the explanation.

I wish you success and happiness. I have many devout Christian friends who are very happy and successful, because they are also very realistic about the nature of this life and the necessity of being honest and responsible for their own lives and all they choose and do. I love them for that, and count our other differences unimportant.

I do not agree with you, or them, about the “basis” of your belief, but there is no reason, so long as we agree that every individual owns his own life and is responsible for that life, we cannot both appreciate and encourage each other in the pursuit of what we believe.

Hope that makes sense to you. ;>)

Hank

[SonOfDarkSkies]

Please do not expect me, or any other person, to accept “feelings” as the explanation.

Expect...from you or any other person?

Why would you presume that I expect anything of you? Do you think I am paid some kind of eternal sales commission for winning converts?

Your life is your business...I am in no position to ask you for your acceptance of anything so infinitely complex. You are not my problem.

You asked me a question, and I spoke from my heart.

That said, if you have courage...look into your own heart (there's more there than "feelings"). BTW, prayer is the key for listening to your own heart.

I am irrelevant in your search for who you are.

But what kind of man is afraid of his own heart. Gear up and take an expedition inside your own being. You will being exploring a land which is both alien and familiar...you will find a voice (maybe several). Which one speaks your language?

If I can ever help, I am here. Otherwise, this is your fight, not mine.

I have my own cross to bear...literally.

[Hank Kerchief]

“Why would you presume that I expect anything of you?”

You seem to have some trouble with simple English. I did not suggest you had any such presumption, it’s mostly a figure of speech. To make so much of it seems odd to me.

So now you use the word “heart,” as though you know what the word means, but I think it only means “feelings” for you. I think we have no more common ground for discussion, because you just presume too much about others—in this case me.

Goodnight, my friend.

[SonOfDarkSkies]

You seem to have some trouble with simple English.

Still making with the insults. Ignore my difficulty with English...if I can help, I am here.

You can make an exponential leap forward...or sit where you are.

Insult me all you want. But I am not a party to this event in your life. How I define "heart" is irrelevant...and what you think about how I define it is irrelevant.

What matters is your expedition into your own heart (which BTW is waiting for you).

This matter is between you and your own heart...whatever I might think has no bearing...so don't blame me for your fear.

If you are afraid of feelings...you will be shocked at how much more than feelings is in your heart.

Buck up!

And give it a try!

Your future awaits you!

[Speaks]

Hi Alex,

Thanks for your comment... So do I ignore the following?
* Koran
* Torah
* Tripitaka
* Bhagavad-Gita
* Alkitab Alaqdas
* Adi Grath
* Tao-te-Ching

???

Alan

[Speaks]

Hi Buffyt,

Thank you for that comment. That really does mean a lot to me, and I’m not being sarcastic. The idea that a religious person would say a prayer is somehow very special for me. Believe it or not, I pray sometimes too... My prayer basically goes something like, “God, I don’t know if you’re out there, but if You are, please help so and so...”

Again... There is a big difference between agnosticism and atheism...

From the heart, thanks again,

Alan

[Speaks]

Hi IronJack,

Thanks for your comment... Gotta say that your comment made me smile... The reason I wrote that rant (Stoutcat posted it for me while I was at work) was that I was disheartened by the bombing in Peshawar... Too many Tokyo subways, Twin Towers, Jonestowns, Heavens Gates...

Thanks again

Alan

[Speaks]

Hi Duncan,

First, I wrote the original rant... Stoutcat posted it for me...

Believe it or not, I agree with you... My point was that we have all these religions spouting all these different “facts”, and people are killing each other in the process...

IMHO, if you want to pray, go ahead. Rarely, I do too... But I never assume that I have the market cornered when it comes to the existence and mind of gawd. And I certainly don’t kill other people because they don’t see things my way.

Thanks for the comment,

Alan

[Speaks]

Hi OldGuard1,

Thanks for your comment. (I wrote the agnostic rant.) For some reason, when people pray for me, I find it deeply comforting. I know how very personal prayer is... from the heart, thanks for your prayer.

My point was to question it all, and in doing so suggest that stuff like the Twin Towers in NYC or Jonestown should never happen...

Thanks again,

Alan

[Speaks]

Hi GOP_Party_Animal,

Thanks for the comment (I wrote the original rant)... You wrote, “Sad that his engineering mind has never encountered the statistical improbability of our existence.” You’re exquisitely wrong there... Here’s what I wrote back in May 2007 for (of all things) a birdseed blog... I hope you read all of this because as an engineer (and perhaps astronomy buff) you’ll get a kick out of it:
http://www.ebirdseed.com/blog/2007/05/birds_and_the_nature_of_the_un.html

Check out the last full paragraph. Yeah, I’ve “encountered the statistical improbability of our existence.”

Without a doubt, the greatest bit of wisdom ever handed down to me by a senior engineer was the following: The mark of a good engineer is the ability to solve a problem. The mark of a great engineer is to say, “I don’t know” when he doesn’t KNOW. With enough training, anyone can solve problems, but only a few will stand up and say, “I don’t know.” History is cluttered with examples of engineers who thought they “knew” the score... the Hyatt Regency walkway and Tacoma Narrows leap to mind.

Here is a list of religious documents. These have been produced/parsed by brilliant minds. (Then again, there are some pretty bright people who claim it’s ALL hooey...)
* Bible
* Koran
* Torah
* Tripitaka
* Bhagavad-Gita
* Alkitab Alaqdas
* Adi Granth
* tao-te-Ching

So who’s right... The atheist or one of the believers above? And as an engineer (you know the drill) how do we test, measure, and account for the answer?

All I can say, (and all I did say) was that far brighter people have approached the issue of gawd and come up with wildly different answers. Me? I just don’t know...

Thanks again for the comment,

Alan

[Speaks]

Hi Achilles2000,

Thanks for your comment... So do I ignore the following?
* Koran
* Torah
* Tripitaka
* Bhagavad-Gita
* Alkitab Alaqdas
* Adi Grath
* Tao-te-Ching

???

Alan

[Speaks]

Hi IrishCatholic,

Thanks for your comment... Sloppy lazy thinker??? Go get an engineering degree and get back to me and maybe we can talk... In the mean time, study the following...
* Koran
* Torah
* Tripitaka
* Bhagavad-Gita
* Alkitab Alaqdas
* Adi Grath
* Tao-te-Ching

Thanks again...

Alan

???

Alan

[Speaks]

Hi Happyinmygarden,

First off, I wrote that rant, not Stoutcat... She posted it for me. I was at work...

You wrote, “The usual confetti of religion being equated to faith and grace being ignored in favor of intellect.”

In fact, I didn’t ignore faith and grace in favor of intellect... I simply said that I thought that religion should be kept to one’s self. I originally wrote that rant because of my reaction to the Peshawar bombing, though I had the exact same feelings after Jonestown. In general, I’m not crazy about organized religion (can you tell?), but faith is a different matter. I’m an armchair astronomer, and I find the universe mind bending... I don’t know what is more astounding - a universe created by a God, or a universe created by pure soulless physics... Either way, I don’t think our current tomes will give us a realistic answer.

Thanks again... GREAT comment!

Alan

[Speaks]

SoldierDad,

Load two of every creature on earth onto a single boat and get back to me...

Last I checked, the earth is slightly older than 6,000 years...

Two people breeding and populating the earth???

Therein lies the problem... you may think that some of the above is allegory... Others don’t. Who’s right? My answer? I don’t know. That’s why I’m an agnostic and not an atheist.

Thanks for the comment and especially for the service to this country...

Alan

[Speaks]

Hi ClearCase_guy,

Ummm... I’m not hate filled... And I am certainly not an atheist. I am an agnostic who’s worried sick that some religion-wired whacko is going to do something worse than 9/11... (As a deeply conservative person I worried about this stuff since Jonestown.) Long before Sept 11 I’d been saying that something big was coming... And the madness isn’t over yet. What happens when Iran gets The Bomb? The mullahs know the mind of god too... Then what? What happens when the next Aum claims divine knowledge?

Alan

[Happyinmygarden]

If there is a heaven, I suspect we’re all going to be rather surprised to discover with whome we have to share it.

I wonder if some folks will look around and request a transfer...

[Speaks]

SonOfDarkSkies,

Hi, Alan here... (I wrote the original agnostic rant.) I’ve spent the last few hours going through these comments and yours leaps out... You wrote “a faith-based reality that would be somehow diminished by proof.” Why? Look, all I was trying to say is that people are killing each other over written words that often don’t make any sense. That doesn’t mean that you throw the baby out with the bathwater. If your faith helps you get through the day peacefully and as a good citizen... Fantastic! If you’ve done your research and are comfortable with your objectivity... Fantastic! If Jesus shows up tomorrow, waves his hand, and ends all wars... Fantastic! Speaking as an agnostic, I’d say don’t lose track of your faith no matter what the twists and turns including truth. The worst you can be is completely wrong and when the lights go out, they really do go out... And still, you’ll leave a peaceful and graceful legacy... Not bad... not bad at all.

For what it’s worth SonOfDarkSkies, I occasionally do pray (I’m just an agnostic) and my thoughts and prayers go out to you and yours... (I don’t know if they’ll do any good, but I’ll try!)

Best,

Alan