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A Purely Secular, Constitutional Argument Against Abortion
FreeRepublic ^ | November 18, 2008 | MeanWestTexan

Posted on 11/18/2008 12:56:20 PM PST by MeanWestTexan

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I oppose abortion for religious reasons, but often debate people for whom citing religious authority is pointless.

I was pretty proud of this, and figured it was a good thing to share.

1 posted on 11/18/2008 12:56:21 PM PST by MeanWestTexan
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To: wagglebee

Perhaps suitable for a ping, maybe not.


2 posted on 11/18/2008 12:56:43 PM PST by MeanWestTexan (Beware of Obama's Reichstag Fire; Don't permit him to seize emergency powers.)
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To: MeanWestTexan

Yes! To get more support, We need to stop identifying this position as “religious” and use the Constitution!!!! Good job!


3 posted on 11/18/2008 1:00:03 PM PST by HappyinAZ
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To: HappyinAZ

Thank you!

Feel free to cut, paste, email, plagerize without attribution.


4 posted on 11/18/2008 1:01:15 PM PST by MeanWestTexan (Beware of Obama's Reichstag Fire; Don't permit him to seize emergency powers.)
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To: HappyinAZ

I’ve actually been stewing on this since Obama’s “it’s above my pay scale” statement.

I mean, if you are in doubt about taking a life, err on the side of avoiding taking it.


5 posted on 11/18/2008 1:03:20 PM PST by MeanWestTexan (Beware of Obama's Reichstag Fire; Don't permit him to seize emergency powers.)
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To: MeanWestTexan
The problem with that argument is that you can define person however you want. There is no scientific or empirically verifiable meaning of the word. Most philosophers define person as "an entity that is aware of itself and can plan for the future." On those grounds a fetus is not a person. Of course, neither is a newborn infant but other than Obama, very few people are pushing for legalized infanticide. We have a rational duty to hold logically consistent beliefs so we have to either drop support for abortion or start supporting legalized infanticide.

Alternative, we can base personhood on a scientifically verifiable concept: being a member of the species Homo sapiens. In that case abortion should be prohibited because a fetus is a member of the species Homo sapiens. That's scientific fact.

6 posted on 11/18/2008 1:03:41 PM PST by Jibaholic ("Those people who are not ruled by God will be ruled by tyrants." --William Penn)
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To: Jibaholic

Well, they have the burden of proof, beyond a reasonable doubt, to prove a fetus is not a person.

Let’s hear their arguments.


7 posted on 11/18/2008 1:06:24 PM PST by MeanWestTexan (Beware of Obama's Reichstag Fire; Don't permit him to seize emergency powers.)
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To: MeanWestTexan

I like that approach but, has it been tried before that you know of?


8 posted on 11/18/2008 1:14:17 PM PST by wolfcreek (I see miles and miles of Texas....let's keep it that way.)
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To: MeanWestTexan
Well, they have the burden of proof, beyond a reasonable doubt, to prove a fetus is not a person.

No, they don't, at least not in the way you're thinking, and this is where you've missed the point.

When someone is protected by the constitution (that is, they are a "person" according to the constitution), then they cannot be deprived of life or liberty without due process. This is not the same thing as the question of whether an entity is in fact protected under the constitution.

I don't believe you're intentionally trying to use this red herring, but have just gotten confused.
9 posted on 11/18/2008 1:14:18 PM PST by aNYCguy
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To: wolfcreek

Not that I know of.


10 posted on 11/18/2008 1:16:54 PM PST by MeanWestTexan (Beware of Obama's Reichstag Fire; Don't permit him to seize emergency powers.)
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To: MeanWestTexan
Good. I would point out that the Fourteenth Amendment explicitly guarantees the right to life of every person.

I would also add that the law already recognizes unborn children as persons in some circumstances: if I leave my estate to my as-yet-unborn child, that unborn child has legal standing as a person in a probate proceeding.

The common law background on all this is ambiguous, because before the twentieth century society's attitudes were generally quite normal.

The concept of a woman intentionally murdering her own child - as opposed to an angry man killing a woman who bore his illegitmate child in order to avoid future claims on his property - was fairly alien.

Only unmarried women of high social rank had much to fear from illegitimate pregnancy. Married women of high social rank generally bore their illegitimate offspring and passed them off as legitimate. Women of lower social rank, married or unmarried, bore their illegitimate children and passed them off as relatives' children or left them as foundlings.

It wasn't until the twentieth century - when there emerged a large urban upwardly-aspiring middle class of leisured women as well as surgically less-risky abortion - that abortion became popular.

The common law was not formulated in an age when there were millions of unmarried women in their twenties who thought that motherhood was an avoidable inconvenience.

11 posted on 11/18/2008 1:17:03 PM PST by wideawake (Why is it that those who like to be called Constitutionalists know the least about the Constitution?)
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To: aNYCguy

Sure, it’s not the same thing, but there is no reason why the analysis should not work for both parts of the sentence.


12 posted on 11/18/2008 1:18:18 PM PST by MeanWestTexan (Beware of Obama's Reichstag Fire; Don't permit him to seize emergency powers.)
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To: MeanWestTexan
History teaches that the more degraded a society allows the protection of human life to become, the faster the society collapses from its internal rot.

Science, through an understanding of DNA, teaches that at the moment of conception, a unique human being is created. In short, there is no "fish period" to an embryo, it is always a singular human being.

13 posted on 11/18/2008 1:23:35 PM PST by JimSEA
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To: MeanWestTexan
Abortion does not involve the State taking a life, so the 5th Amendment does not apply. Think of it this way: it is not "unconstitutional" for a robber to shoot a store clerk, even though the poor clerk is being deprived of life without any sort of due process.

The issue of whether Roe v. Wade is good law has nothing whatsoever to do with religion and never has. The issue of abortion can certainly be argued on religious grounds, but it has never been necessary to resort to religious argument to argue the legal issue.

The question is: Does the Constitution prohibit the state governments from making abortion illegal? In other words, is there a Constitutionally protected right to have an abortion which cannot be abridged by state (or federal) law?

The correct answer is (or should be): Such a right does not exist in the Constitution. It is not in there. I checked. Read the whole thing. Not in there.

Roe v. Wade holds that the Bill of Rights (the first 10 Amendments) taken as a whole, create a "penumbra" (or emanation) of other, non-defined rights such as a right to privacy from state intrusion in a personal decision such as abortion--and Voila!-- no state can prohibit abortion. It is really just mumbo-jumbo concocted for the convenience of liberal, activist judges to impose social policy.

14 posted on 11/18/2008 1:23:59 PM PST by San Jacinto
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To: San Jacinto

You win by framing the issue.

I think the way we frame it is “Can they prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that a fetus is not a person?”

If the burden is not met, err on the side of caution.

It cuts the whole “it’s above my pay grade” argument right out.


15 posted on 11/18/2008 1:27:58 PM PST by MeanWestTexan (Beware of Obama's Reichstag Fire; Don't permit him to seize emergency powers.)
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To: MeanWestTexan

Not sure that one can “logically” start with the assumption that the fetus IS a person and then force the State prove it is not.


16 posted on 11/18/2008 1:29:47 PM PST by ElectricStrawberry (1/27th Infantry Wolfhounds...cut in half during the Clinton years.)
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To: San Jacinto

I used the “secure the blessings of Liberty for ourselves and our POSTERITY” arguement on a Moonbat. She said the Pre-Amble doesn’t really count. I said, you mean the “WE THE PEOPLE” part!

E Plebnista - Cloud William


17 posted on 11/18/2008 1:31:01 PM PST by massgopguy (I owe everything to George Bailey)
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To: San Jacinto

“Abortion does not involve the State taking a life, so the 5th Amendment does not apply.”

If done on the taxpayers dime.....


18 posted on 11/18/2008 1:32:14 PM PST by wolfcreek (I see miles and miles of Texas....let's keep it that way.)
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To: MeanWestTexan

Their “argument” would be to pass a bill stating “for all matters of law in the State of ‘X’, ‘person’ shall be defined as ‘one that can live outside the mother’”....or something to that affect of legally defining “person” as a viable child outside the mother.

End of argument.


19 posted on 11/18/2008 1:32:39 PM PST by ElectricStrawberry (1/27th Infantry Wolfhounds...cut in half during the Clinton years.)
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To: ElectricStrawberry

Well, they have the burden to prove guilt in order to take a life.

No logical reason they would not have the burden in all the other parts.


20 posted on 11/18/2008 1:33:34 PM PST by MeanWestTexan (Beware of Obama's Reichstag Fire; Don't permit him to seize emergency powers.)
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