Lost At Sea: The Vietnam “Blue Water Navy” Vets Case

"Legal Alert Newsletter", June 2008, Weitz Morgan Law Firm, of Austin, Texas ^ | Monday, June 30, 2008 | Mark Weitz

[Right Winged American]

Note: Due to the questions about a previous posting: Department of Veterans Affairs Prepares to Strip John McCain of Vietnam Veteran Title, here is a rather nice explanation of how this all came about. The blog it comes from is also an excellent resource for those of us in the Blue Water Navy to use in dealing with the Department of Veterans Affairs.

For more Blue Water Navy Vietnam Veterans/Agent Orange Info, go here:

http://bluewaternavy.org

Discussions/Forum about Blue Water Navy Vets, Here:

http://bluewaternavy.org/phpBB2/index.php

FreepMail me to join the Blue Water Navy ping list.

 

 

Blue Water Navy
Vietnam Veterans
of America

[Right Winged American]

Slinger, this may help answer some of the questions in the previous post. You may consider it pingworthy too.

[magslinger]

SONOBUOY PING!

Click on pic for past Navair pings.

Post or FReepmail me if you wish to be enlisted in or discharged from the Navair Pinglist.
This is a medium to low volume pinglist.

[Ron Jeremy]

, but by the 1980’s it was permanently disabling and killing Vietnam veterans by the tens of thousands.

Stopped reading there. What a load.

[Right Winged American]

Stopped reading there. What a load.

Don't believe the numbers? So did I. Then I tried to find out the actual figure.

Guess what? The DVA will not release those figures.

Have to protect the veterans privacy, don't'cha know...

[Tallguy]

Must be an election around the corner. We’re getting the “servicemen-as-victims” stories. Without commenting on the facts of this article, this is how liberals prove their ‘support’ for the US Fighting Man. They treat him/her as a potential customer for social services.

[Ron Jeremy]

Please...believe me when I say I have sympathy for the vietnam vets exposed.. I really do. but ten’s of thousands is simply not a credible number. I would bet that, in terms of deaths, you would be hard pressed to prove 500.

[Right Winged American]

Please...believe me when I say I have sympathy for the vietnam vets exposed.. I really do. but ten’s of thousands is simply not a credible number. I would bet that, in terms of deaths, you would be hard pressed to prove 500.

Ok, I do not have the figures of Army/Marine ground forces who have the Cancers/Lymphomas directly caused by exposure to the Dioxins in Agent Orange.

However, the figure I have for "Blue Water Navy" Vietnam Veterans with these Cancers/Lymphomas who have had their claims DENIED by this ruling is 25 to 35 THOUSAND.

Of course, that's the ones, like me, who are still ALIVE. And I am diagnosed with CLL Leukemia, which doesn't kill you quite as fast as the guys with prostate cancer; They've been dying and a somewhat higher rate.

Do you know how many kinds of cancer the National Academy of Science's Institute of Medicine count as 'presumed' to be caused by exposure to contaminates of Agent Orange?

Would you care to venture a guess as to how many veterans have died without knowing the disease that killed them was 'presumed' to be caused by AO?

It's not as if the DVA is sending out letters asking if you have this or that disease, now is it?

God, the ignorance...

[Ron Jeremy]

Ok, I do not have the figures of Army/Marine ground forces who have the Cancers/Lymphomas directly caused by exposure to the Dioxins in Agent Orange.

I've been searching.. can't find anything so far.

However, the figure I have for "Blue Water Navy" Vietnam Veterans with these Cancers/Lymphomas who have had their claims DENIED by this ruling is 25 to 35 THOUSAND.

Good. Is it really your position that everyone who served on a ship in vietnam who gets cancer should have an Agent Orange claim? People get cancer, you know. Absent agent organge, lots and lots of soldiers and sailors would have still gotten cancer. How can some guy who served on a destroyer possibly claim that Agent Orange caused his cancer? The army guys who got sick either handled the stuff or were on the ground right after its application. None of that applies to blue water navy.

Of course, that's the ones, like me, who are still ALIVE. And I am diagnosed with CLL Leukemia, which doesn't kill you quite as fast as the guys with prostate cancer; They've been dying and a somewhat higher rate.

While of course I am sorry for your condition, what makes you think Agent Orange caused it?

Do you know how many kinds of cancer the National Academy of Science's Institute of Medicine count as 'presumed' to be caused by exposure to contaminates of Agent Orange?

Nope. But I noticed googling around that people fatties with type II diabetes, a very common ailment these days, are also claiming that it was because of agent orange.

Would you care to venture a guess as to how many veterans have died without knowing the disease that killed them was 'presumed' to be caused by AO?

Sure. Less than 500.

It's not as if the DVA is sending out letters asking if you have this or that disease, now is it? God, the ignorance...

Ignorance would be assuming that everyone who served in Vietnam and has cancer got it because of Agent Orange.

[Ron Jeremy]

Will a memorial to Chunky Monkey
consumers be next?
By Steven Milloy and Michael Gough
Copyright 2000 The Washington Times
April 30, 2000

James Zumwalt’s April 25 Commentary column, “Honoring all who died,” has noble intentions but lacks a factual basis. Mr. Zumwalt urges a memorial for Vietnam veterans who died as a result of Agent Orange exposure and suicides related to post-traumatic stress disorder.

No credible scientific evidence exists that Agent Orange has caused harm to human health. The Environmental Protection Agency’s (EPA) Science Advisory Board concluded that dioxin, the substance of concern in Agent Orange, has caused no health effects except for a skin disease seen at very high exposure levels.

Tests for dioxin in U.S. ground troops serving in areas sprayed by Agent Orange indicate there were no measurable exposures. There is no excess mortality among U.S. Air Force personnel who sprayed 90 percent of the Agent Orange and definitely were exposed.

The hype surrounding dioxin is best deflated by our recent study measuring the level of dioxin in a serving of Ben & Jerry’s ice cream at about 200 times the EPA’s so-called “safe” level. Ben & Jerry’s claims, “The only safe level of dioxin exposure is no exposure at all,” but no one is rushing to build a monument to consumers of Chunky Monkey.

Finally, there is no question that suicides have been elevated in combat veterans. A monument would be better dedicated to all combat veterans whose minds were so damaged that they took their own lives.

STEVEN MILLOY
Publisher
Junkscience.com
Potomac

MICHAEL GOUGH
Bethesda
Michael Gough was chairman (1990-95) of the Department of Health and Human Services’ advisory panel to the U.S. Air Force study of the effects of Agent Orange.

[MosesKnows]

While the process removed the salt from the water, it did not filter out the toxins

If water and the process did not filter out toxins, why is that the Agent Orange I use on yard and driveway plants becomes ineffective when rained on?

[Unrepentant VN Vet]

Ten thousand comedians out of work, and WTH do you get when you try to start a serious discussion?

[Ron Jeremy]

If water and the process did not filter out toxins, why is that the Agent Orange I use on yard and driveway plants becomes ineffective when rained on?

On top of that.. sunlight breaks down agent orange in a few days. Sure some guys got exposed.. sure they should be given help even if an EXACT statistical linkage is not proven.. but that's guys that handled the stuff or were directly exposed to it. That some dude on a aircraft carrier 50 miles offshore wants to blame is type 2 diabetes on agent orange is absurd.

[Right Winged American]

If water and the process did not filter out toxins, why is that the Agent Orange I use on yard and driveway plants becomes ineffective when rained on?

On top of that.. sunlight breaks down agent orange in a few days. Sure some guys got exposed.. sure they should be given help even if an EXACT statistical linkage is not proven.. but that's guys that handled the stuff or were directly exposed to it. That some dude on a aircraft carrier 50 miles offshore wants to blame is type 2 diabetes on agent orange is absurd.

The organophosphates that constitute the active ingredient in the 'rainbow' herbicides do indeed break down in sunlight. Hence the need for reapplication. Particularly since, as you know, it rains in Vietnam.

The Dioxins, particularly TCDD, which were contaminates of the 'rainbow' herbicides DO NOT.

As I am certain that you know.

The mutagen related to AO diseases and cancers were dioxins.

You know, the stuff they tried to incinerate from the soil at Times Beach. And found that they just flew up the stack attached to ash, contaminating the soil around the incinerators.

Did you read the RAN report? You know, the biochemistry parts?

It's clear to me you've made up your mind about this years ago. Regrettably, I suspect you'll continue to hold your untenable position, regardless of the research. But hey, you sound sooo knowledgeable! Someone (cough!VAGenCouncilcough!) will believe you, I’m sure...

[Right Winged American]

I know. I could play dueling quotes with this guy till hell freezes over, and he'll never change his opinion. He's pinged me before when I post AO or BWN related stuff, and I usually waste time replying to him. I should say that all of the scientific studies (including the ones he quotes) are available on www.BlueWaterNavy.org site.

Arguing with him is like using a rubber swab handle. No matter how hard or fast you work, you don't get anywhere.

Sigh.

[Ron Jeremy]

You have nothing on your side but emotions. If you think that tens of thousands of veterans have died from agent orange, then you have not looked at this rationally. The air force guys who handled the stuff show no increase in disease than the overall population. Now, I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.. but you think some lard ass who served on a ship 50 miles off shore who gets diabetes should be classified as an agent orange victim. That is nuts. How about this: Instead of posting propaganda.. post a single study that backs up your claims.

[Right Winged American]

So I guess you didn’t read the Royal Australian Navy reports in re; flash steam distillers.

Ron, we’ve been here before. Address the question, and quit questioning my motives. The AirForce reports quoted were from the ‘80s, just quoted in 2000.

But you knew that, didn’t you.

[Ron Jeremy]

First, we have never discussed this, or anything else before. You have me confused with someone else. The simple fact is that there is no good evidence of health problems for people who even had direct exposure. But fine, give them the benefit of the doubt. But the idea that some guy on a destroyer 30 miles out at see has any effects is laughably absurd on its face, and it is a good thing all of your claims are being turned down.

[Unrepentant VN Vet]

I’ll be back tomorrow, RWA.

Don’t let the Professional Poster get to you.

If you started a thread talking about the Earth being a spheroid, he’d use up a terabyte claiming that it was flat just to get some attention.

[donozark]

If one accepts the total 2.7 million Americans as actually having served “In-County,” and I believe 800K (approx.-do you agree with this 800K figure?) were “Blue Water Navy Veterans” then the government has, or hopes to have about 1.9 million VN Vets to deal with. Obvious to most, they are trying to reduce the figure. Of course this number was prior to illness, car/truck deaths, work deaths,etc. taking their toll since war’s end.
Oddly, I have census figures (inexact as they are) that show 1.7 million VN Vets alive in 1995, yet only one million alive in Y2K, only 5 years later. Much confusion here.
How do we address this problem if the gov. doesn’t even know how many of us are alive today? No wonder so many “phony vets” surface! Some even drawing veterans benefits.
Methinks the gov. is trying to draw a line somewhere, but excluding (from the class) 800K recipients of the Vietnam Service Medal who received it some 40 years ago is grossly unfair. Only turns one vet against another.
Ever noted how gov. dislikes intensely the retroactive AWARDING of medals (CAB, CMB for Aviation Unit medics), Air Assault Badge,etc., yet deigns to strip the VSM (in essence) and toss 800K sailors from the ship?