When Hagee retired, Mattis was passed over for Marine commandant in favor of Conway. If the rumor's true, that fourth star may be lost to him forever.
Posted on 03/11/2007 3:38:43 PM PDT by RedRover
When Lt. Pantano was accused, he asked himself if he should fight. He had volunteered to serve his country. Would going to jail, so that Iraqis knew he was punished, be a service?
He decided to fight, obviously, but it's a really interesting question.
Would the Haditha Marines serve their country by pleading guilty and accepting punishment--even if they know they are innocent?
The reason to raise this question is to try and understand the political nature of the charges against the Marines. I believe that that therein lies the reason for Mattis' actions.
What do you guys think?
Would you ever consider calling Pantano?
Are you saying that Mattis would want a Marine to take one for the team so the Iraqis feel some sort of “payment” for civilian deaths? In return Mattis would go for the shortest jail time possible?
After this AM I am SHOCKED you would ask me a thinker’s question! :)
See I forgot to answer the question...I personally do not feel that a Marine has the burden to carry on a debt or punishment for keeping himself alive and coming back home in hopes of pursuing a “normal” life with his family and good name. He should reap the benefits of what he sows for the USA. It is one thing to die for your country and your beliefs, so if you believe you are not guilty, continue the fight.
In any event, if this case is playing out as I believe it is, then SOMEONE is going to have to fall on a grenade before it's over. And if it's not the Haditha Marines, it's going to have to be Lt. Gen. Mattis.
Ah that stinks.
If it was up to me, I’d volunteer Lt. Gen. Mattis for falling-on-grenade duty.
“Would the Haditha Marines serve their country by pleading guilty and accepting punishment—even if they know they are innocent?”
NO, this would not serve the country’s interest. It may serve certain brass’ interests who have personal stakes in this new direction. Haditha has happened, that bell can’t be unrung. Not standing behind your military personnel sends a huge message to insurgents/terrorists that their methods work. The Haditha Marines have paid dearly already. They have lost their future careers that they invested a lot of blood, sweat and tears in. They have been publicly called murderers, probably can’t walk down the streets without wondering what strangers are thinking, they and their families have been financially burdened, if not broken, live in fear of the future, so probably aren’t making many plans. They’ve been publicly “flogged” before a day in court.
One of the accused young men in the Duke rape case made a wise prediction about the day he dies. He said, paraphrased, when I die, it will be noted that one of three men accused in the Duke LaCrosse Rape case died today. He will live with that title the rest of his life even though he was proclaimed innocent. The Haditha Marines can probably relate to this sentiment.
They’ve done their time for killing women and children in Iraq. They should be released from this process. The media, politicians, and most of the public have moved on. Spending several years or life in jail will serve noones interests. If these actions had been premeditated, I could understand them having to pay a further price by being locked up. This is a ROE issue. This was their training for clearing a house during combat.
Jude, is there anything specific in COIN doctrine about punishment, or removal, of troops who have been perceived as acting counter to the best interest of the COIN operation? Irrespective of guilt or innocence, a single soldier could jeopardize an entire mission if the local populace believes he or she is a criminal yet nothing is done.
KaPow....no biggie for a LT GEN to take a loss....I personally would admire him more if he did so and he has a fat bank roll to live off the rest of his life. He’s lived his career but I know he wants the big bird title.
I know the Lt General has already reached full bird, but you know what I mean...he wants his star jewelry.
When Hagee retired, Mattis was passed over for Marine commandant in favor of Conway. If the rumor's true, that fourth star may be lost to him forever.
Well too bad I am not on his advancement board because I like what he said.
Well, it could just be a rumor. I think people were surprised that Conway was chosen over Mattis.
Girlene: NO, this would not serve the country’s interest. [] Haditha has happened, that bell can’t be unrung.
I would concur with Girlene. Pleading guilty, really, won't satisfy the bloodlust from the insurgents. The damage has already been done.
One of the accused young men in the Duke rape case made a wise prediction about the day he dies. He said, paraphrased, when I die, it will be noted that one of three men accused in the Duke LaCrosse Rape case died today. He will live with that title the rest of his life even though he was proclaimed innocent. The Haditha Marines can probably relate to this sentiment.
There's a critical difference between the Duke LAX case and the Haditha Marines. The Duke LAX case had no business being presented because there was no evidence an assault had even taken place, and the students had almost rock-solid alibis. In such a situation, you pretty much have no choice but to stand and fight. The Haditha Marines, on the other hand, indisputably killed civilians. The question is not whether they committed the underlying act, but whether they did so with a guilty mental state. Haditha is much trickier, because the conclusion largely hinges on a question of criminal intent versus lawful use of force. It's a much closer question, so the question of a plea is a utilitarian one - balancing their odds of acquittal (which are pretty good, but too close for my comfort) against the potential sentence (which would be fairly steep).
This was their training for clearing a house during combat.
This is a very important point - one which the defense would be well-served to consider making the center-piece of their defense. While in hindsight, it is clear that Haditha is an unmitigated disaster, a very good case can be made that they acted consistent with their training.
If I remember correctly, that was the exact reason why the Marine Special Force that allegedly attacked civilians in Afghanistan recently were removed from the area.
Suppose you were in a position of power over the Haditha Marines.
One night, President Bush calls you and says, "Those Marines in Haditha set us back in Iraq and in the WOT. I don't care if they're guilty or not, they have to be locked up so the Iraqis know we're on their side. If we don't take action, we could lose in Iraq."
What would you do?
Do you mean, suppose I represented them?
"I don't care if they're guilty or not, they have to be locked up so the Iraqis know we're on their side."
If I were the attorney for the accused, I'd have a duty to them and them alone. All other needs are secondary to their best interests. So, frankly, my answer to anyone who asked would be, "Sir, with all due respect, my duty is to protect the interests of my clients. I can't consider the needs of anyone else without violating my ethical duty. So, I must respectfully say that this cannot be a concern of mine."
On the other hand, I would tell the client that the handwriting is on the wall, and it looks like there's going to be a full-court press and he may not be able to win. Under such a circumstance, a plea should be considered - but the politics of the situation cannot otherwise influence the attorney.
“I would concur with Girlene.”
Jude24, well, I do declare, we have some agreement! I have seperated out this sentence above so you can copy and paste in all your replies to me. Just teasin’ ya. :-)
I was looking for a thread that Captains Journal had written about Marines’ room clearing training. The jist was that the Marines have no other training when it comes to “taking a house” and clearing it. I’ll keep looking. Anyway, during this process, I found a series of Captains Journal blogs I thought you might find interesting. Here is an excerpt from one that in my mind is quite relevant to the discussions about ROE, counterinsurgencies and Haditha.: http://www.captainsjournal.com/
....”Setting up the choice between Luttwak and FM 3-24 [counterinsurgency Field Manual] as the only alternatives is false. There is a middle ground that avoids intentional collateral damage while also encouraging robust offensive operations against the enemy. Security is more important in a counterinsurgency than winning hearts and minds. If the population knows that the U.S. forces will not shoot into a home (from which fire is coming) for fear of collateral damage, then they can never stand up to the insurgents, and the choice is clear. The U.S. cannot or will not protect them and they must submit to the insurgents. The presence of insurgents in their home or neighborhood becomes de facto security strictly because of the ROE.”....
The Captains Journal website is very thoughtful and thought provoking. He has written a lot about ROE and the fallout in the field with the latest versions. Now it looks like he’s tackling Counterinsurgencies and Just War issues.
Woops, met to also include you, Red, in the previous post to jude24. Sorry I took so long to reply - busy times.
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