In Defense of our National Heritage

National Morality. Com ^ | 06-22-05 | Wayne D. Leeper

[mlc9852]

Mylo, there is nothing wrong with faith. Everyone has faith - it's just a matter of where we place that faith.

[tenn2005]

A few questions.
What god is it that the diest recognizes?
How do you know that god exist? What is the evidence?
What method has that god chosen to reveal his will to you?
What standards of moral conduct has that god set before you?
What form of worship have you been instructed to offer to that god?

[Mylo]

Faith in something that is evidently incorrect is just willful ignorance however. You offer very little support to corroborate your belief other than your opinion and faith.

The fact of the matter is the many of the most influential of the founding fathers were Deists.

[mlc9852]

And many were Christians. So what?

[Mylo]

What god is it that the deist recognizes?

No creed or sect, just the Creator of natures law.

How do you know that god exist? What is the evidence?

There is none, one must have faith that the ordered laws of the universe were set in place by the Creator.

What method has that god chosen to reveal his will to you?

Deists believe that the Creator hasn't revealed his will to anyone, except in the existence of the laws of the universe, or natural law.

What standards of moral conduct has that god set before you?

To recognize the natural rights of man, respect them, strive for freedom and do what is right.

What form of worship have you been instructed to offer to that god?

The Creator is not a jealous god, neither a god who needs sycophantic mutters to appease his wrath. Discerning the natural laws of the universe, respecting the rights of man, and living in an upright and moral and ordered fashion are the highest praise of one who created this perfectly ordered universe.

[Mylo]

So at last you admit that many were Deists, based upon their own words?

Yes, many were Christians also, but the most influential of the founding fathers were Deists; so it is incorrect to say that this nation was founded upon Christian ideals, and it is against the clearly stated law of the land in a signed treaty by President Adams that this nation was 'in no way founded upon the Christian religion'. I think Adams knew, as he was there, so his opinion tends to carry a bit more weight with me.

[mlc9852]

Okay - you win but I just don't understand what point if any you are trying to make. Christians were and continue to be very influential in the United States. Again, why are you bashing Bible-believing Christians?

[tenn2005]

I am glad that you respect the opinion of John Adams.

John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, June 28, 1813:

The general principles, on which the Fathers achieved independence, were the only Principles in which that beautiful Assembly of young Gentlemen could Unite....And what were these general Principles? I answer, the general Principles of Christianity, in which all these Sects were United: . . . Now I will avow, that I then believe, and now believe, that those general Principles of Christianity, are as eternal and immutable, as the Existence and Attributes of God; and that those Principles of Liberty, are as unalterable as human Nature and our terrestrial, mundane System.
Lester J. Capon, ed., The Adams-Jefferson Letters 2 vols. (Chapel Hill, NC: University of North Carolina Press, 1959), 2:339-40

[tenn2005]

Patrick Henry was there too. He said:

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For that reason alone, people of other faiths have been afforded freedom of worship here."

[tenn2005]

Hear Benjamine Franklin quoting a statement which Jesus made in the Christian Bible.

"I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth--that God Governs the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? "
- Benjamin Franklin

[tenn2005]

finally, Thomas Jefferson also wrote:

"A more beautiful or precious morsel of ethics I have never seen; it is a document in proof that I am a real Christian; that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."

"I have always said, I always will say, that the studious perusal of the sacred volume will make better citizens, better fathers, and better husbands."

Jefferson declared that religion is: "Deemed in other countries incompatible with good government and yet proved by our experience to be its best support."

You need to learn to diferenciate between when an individual is speaking in his official capacity concerning the official position of the nation and when they are expressing their own personal religious beliefs.

[tenn2005]

Not to forget James Madison, the "father" of our constitution.

We have staked the whole future of American civilization not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments.

James Madison

[Mylo]

Quoting our founding fathers and the truth about their beliefs is NOT bashing anybody.

[Mylo]

Adams: I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" "The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature ; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and SUPERSTITION, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will NEVER be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the GODS, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses. ". . . Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a PRETENSE of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind." Emphasis added.

[Mylo]

Dr. Priestley, an intimate friend of Franklin, wrote of him:
"It is much to be lamented that a man of Franklin's general good character and great influence should have been an unbeliever in Christianity, and also have done as much as he did to make others unbelievers" (Priestley's Autobiography)

[Mylo]

Although Jefferson did admire the morality of Jesus, Jefferson did not think him divine, nor did he believe in the Trinity or the miracles of Jesus. In a letter to Peter Carr, 10 August 1787, he wrote, "Question with boldness even the existence of a god."

Jefferson believed in materialism, reason, and science. He never admitted to any religion but his own. In a letter to Ezra Stiles Ely, 25 June 1819, he wrote, "You say you are a Calvinist. I am not. I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know."

[Mylo]

James Madison: "During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."

"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not."

[mlc9852]

There are many posts on here that seem to support the Christian view in the establishing of America. Why in the world do you have such a problem with that?

[Mylo]

But there are just as many that do not support the Christian view, along with quotes of many of the founders condemning Christian belief, denying that our nation was founded upon it, or establishing that they were not Christians, so it is error to say that the founding fathers established this nation based upon Christianity.

Influenced by, yes. Established upon, NO!

Adams directly contradicts the notion in the above quotes I provided; as well as establishing it as the law of the land.

As to why I have a problem with it is because I am against historical revisionism, especially when motivated by religious bigotry such as the quoted Supreme Court Justice who thought that the 1st Amendment put Christians at a preeminent position above other faiths, contradicting what George Washington wrote to the Newport Jews establishing that he believed ALL had equal freedom of worship.

[mlc9852]

Everyone has equal freedom to worship - are you attempting to make any other points that I've missed?