Biology textbook hearings prompt science disputes [Texas]

Knight Ridder Newspapers ^ | 08 July 2003 | MATT FRAZIER

[CobaltBlue]

Here is a link to an article on the Institute's website that goes into more detail about the arguments (Adobe Acrobat format):

What Are Key Problems With Darwinism

And this (HTML):

Intelligent Design and Creationism Just Aren't the Same

[jennyp]

And these were the "four arguments" presented? sheesh . . .

Yep, they were pretty lame. Basically taken from Jonathan Wells' Icons of Evolution book, and all thoroughly refuted by several people. (This article is a good overview of why Wells' arguments are bogus.)

[AndrewC]

All you non-Texans butt-out!

Feels good to write that.

[Junior]

Even if one accepts that species change from one thing to another, it is farmore difficult to explain where the first living thing came from, and how it was magically able to reproduce itself.

Now you've slipped out of the theory of evolution and into the realm of biogenesis. Currently there are numerous competing hypoetheses of how life arose (my money's on the one with the interstellar dust clouds, but that's simply because there is a lot more data available for it that for many of the others). However, it's in this territory that the definition of life becomes fuzzy. What separates self-organizing and self-replicating molecules (of which there are many) from self-organizing and self-replicating life? At what point is it no longer a chemical but simple life. Is there even a hard cut-off, or does it all kind of shade together? These are the questions the pioneers in the biogenesis field are currently tackling.

[js1138]

Calls to mind the cold fusion fiasco...

Ooooooh... Don't forget polywater.

[Onelifetogive]

Out of curiosity, who might this have been?

I made it up...that's why I had to include the </literary license> in the post.

[whattajoke]

Remedial Science 101: This is a fact. This is a theory. They are not the same!

I've posted this before, but I don't recognize your screen name. Enjoy

Often this statement is considered a sufficient dissenting argument. But it really is an expression of ignorance about how science works. I remind you that everything we understand about how things work in this world is ‘theoretical.’ Architects consult architectural theory. Structural engineers designing a bridge consult structural engineering theory. Medical doctors consult medical theory. Repeat, scientific theories are discoveries of how our natural reality is organized. To the extent a theory is useful it will be used. To the extent a theory is not useful it won’t be used. Given the power and utility of the theories that form the foundation of modern, technological civilization, a statement like the one above reflects a failure to understand this.

[CobaltBlue]

Most atheists are content to say that they don't believe that God exists.

I do know a couple who say that they believe that God does not exist. Big difference. These types could qualify as a sort of "religion," no?

[Junior]

Who are you, Elroy Jetson? Grade School Quantum Theory???

Well, I was considered "gifted" in school, but that simply meant I was a geek and prey to every bully within miles...

[RightWhale]

contemplating alternative theories - ideas - thoughts ?

Science: exploring productive lines of inquiry, vastly productive and far-ranging; creating new modes of thought, growing, scanning, indifferent; forcing and following verticils arising out of mycelial fiber mats science in stasis ceases, in growth moves higher; always seeking new shoots, all intersections, following open-ended routes, back-tracking to the branch-off before dead-ends; no time to waste on abbreviated stumpy branches.

[Junior]

Atheistic physics... now there's a concept...

[AndrewC]

What separates self-organizing and self-replicating molecules (of which there are many) from self-organizing and self-replicating life? At what point is it no longer a chemical but simple life. Is there even a hard cut-off, or does it all kind of shade together? These are the questions the pioneers in the biogenesis field are currently tackling.

Can you give an example of your difficulty in deciding whether something is alive or not alive?

[f.Christian]

fC ...

Nobody knows a ' reasonable ' doubt // truth - science has to be in reality ...

How can they know reality // truth -- honesty --- THEY REJECT EVERY BIT OF IT ...

evos teach and practice the OPPOSITE ---

they think the biggest - best liar (( reason )) wins (( good definition of evolution )) !

als reply ...

they think the biggest - best liar wins"


als ...

"survival of the fittest"

coincidence?

[exmarine]

Atheistic physics... now there's a concept...

Heard of Astrophysics? How about the Big Bang? Heard of that? There's a concept!

[js1138]

That strikes me as absurd. (i.e. I know for sure what happened in steps 2 through 27,367. But I don't have the foggiest notion what happened in step 1.) You don't suppose the "truth" about steps 2 - 27,367 could be related in any way to step 1, do ya?

The Nobel prize await you if you can solve step one. By the way, no one knows all about steps 2-27,367. We also don't know exactly what happened in the OJ murders. Does this mean they didn't happen? Or does it mean that those who believe OJ is a murderer are promulgating a religion?

[Junior]

This is a fact. This is a theory. They are not the same!

Exactly. However, evolution is fact in that it has been observed (organisms changing over generations) and theory(s) in that researchers have postulated a series of mecahanisms to explain these changes. Biology classes should explain the first before tackling the second. They don't however, and the student is left with just enough information to pass his mid-term, but without enough information to really understand what is going on.

[whattajoke]

Good to see the gov't finally got around to noticing those copper bracelets are a fraud. Now, I don't mind companies relieving gullible people of their cash sometimes, but I've gotta wonder...

http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2003/06/qtinc.htm

(funny thing is, if you do a google search on "q ray" right above the 1st story -the above url-- are 2 ads to get your very own ugly piece of copper that will only make your skin green. Strangely, I love America b/c of stuff like this!)

Of course, these companies get only a slap on the wrist, and certainly don't have to refund anyone. They will probably go on to sell them as T-Ray bracelets or something. Or move on to magnetic socks or crystals or dowsing rods, etc.

Barnum said it so well...

[CobaltBlue]

I think the jury is still out on whether prions are alive or not. They don't have RNA or DNA, so how do they replicate?

How about viruses?

[Junior]

In a weird way, the creationists are advancing scientific understanding!

Irony, thy name is ID.

[f.Christian]

Evolution is a denatured seed - colony ...

a hopless dichotomy ---

rotting (( all manmade - artificial - PLASTC )) !

Here's a crash course in eschatology (( future events )) ...


"Thus 9:24 and 8:14 point to the same reality---the kingdom of God ignaugurated at the first advent and consummated at the second."

To: Aric2000

You know nothing about science (( history )) or the bible ... just tacky rants !

It seemed that indeed the truth would be 'forever on the scaffold, and wrong forever on the throne'. With great eagerness he listened to the query, 'How long shall be the vision?'(Daniel 8:13)."
Daniel and the Coming King

Chapter 16

The Gospel In Daniel 9:24

By Dr.Desmond Ford

"It would be tragic if we contented ourselves with an analytical examination of this passage of Scripture. It is not merely a scintillating gem to be admired, but the bread of life to be eaten. It consists of 'the everlasting gospel' in minature."

"That which should concern us all the more than the issues of hermeneutics is the issue of life---our life. Not minutiae of prophetic interpretation, but sin, sorrow, and death constitute our problems. Daniel 9:24 assures us that the world is a ship and not an iceberg, that God is intensely interested in our dilemma, and, best of all, that He has done something to extricate us from the apparent cul-de-sac of existence. In Christ, the Melchizedekan King-Priest, He has brought in everlasting righteousness, freely offered to all who believe."

Chapter 14

Daniel and the Coming King---Daniel 9

By Dr.Desmond Ford

"Sir Isaac Newton, the greatest of scientists prior to the modern period, wrote a commentary upon the prohecies of Daniel and Revelations. He desribed Daniel 9:24-27 as "the foudation-stone of the Christian religion" because centuries in advance it gave the time of appearance of the Messiah and His death, as well as a comprehensive description of His saving work in heaven and earth. The prophecy likewise tells what would be the fate of the Jews consequent upon their rejection of the One whose coming they had long anticpated. The destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, foretold in Daniel 9:24-27, was history's testimony that the offerings and services of the sanctuary had met their fulfillment in the advent of the promised Messiah."

Newton, Isaac. Observsations Upon the Prophecies of Daniel and the Apocalpse of St. John. London: J. Darby and T. Browne, 1733 (Isaac Newton)

Chrystalk ...

"All of this while the book itself says it is sealed up, and never will be understood ... until the End of Days --- which we are living in ... "

Chapter 14

Daniel and the Coming King---Daniel 9

by Dr.Desmond Ford @ ... GNU (( link )).

Seal Up the Vision

"The expression 'to seal up the vision' (v.24) should be considered. This expression, 'the vision', occurs eleven times in Daniel 8:1 to 10:1, and in all these cases it refers to the vision described in the eighth chapter of Daniel. The reader is advised to read again the entire passage. In pictorial, symbolic form the prophet was shown the unfolding of all future centuries till the second advent of Christ. The famous empires, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome, which long oppressed the people of God, are described; but particular emphasis is given to the persecution of the church during the Christian era and also to the supremacy of the couterfeit, apostate religion over most of that period. Christ's mediatorial ministry in heaven is alluded to, but its eclipse from men's mind through a counterfeit system is fortold. The sanctuary mentioned refers both to the church temple indwelt by the Holy Spirit on earth, as well as Israel's typical sanctuary. No doubt Daniel was dazed by this revelation of the apparent triumph of evil. In his lifetime he had witnessed the destruction of Jerusalem's temple, the center of true religion, and the carrying into captivity of the people of God by an idolatrous and desolating nation. Now in vision he is informed that this state of affairs is to continue on a much greater scale throughout most of the earth's history. It seemed that indeed the truth would be 'forever on the scaffold, and wrong forever on the throne'. With great eagerness he listened to the query, 'How long shall be the vision?'(Daniel 8:13)."

"Now in the revelation of 9:24-27 the mourning seer is told that there is a greater Prince of the house of Judah, a greater atonement, a greater sanctuary, and a greater redemption than any ever before experienced by Israel. The long-awaited Messiah, the Prince, a Priest-King, will take away the sin of the world and end earth's dark night. Thus 9:24 and 8:14 point to the same reality---the kingdom of God ignaugurated at the first advent and consummated at the second."


UNFOLDING (( designeduniverse.com )) !