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'Intelligent design' theory threatens science classrooms
Seattle Post Intelligencer ^ | 11/22/2002 | ALAN I. LESHNER

Posted on 06/22/2003 5:29:39 PM PDT by Aric2000

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To: whattajoke
Then again, it appears ALS got banned as a result of his posts here, so in that regard, it was a productive thread afterall.

I think it's just another 3 days in the penalty box. The banned accounts are less ambiguous. "This account has been banned."

941 posted on 06/24/2003 6:39:13 AM PDT by VadeRetro
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To: whattajoke
Worst. Thread. Ever.

Pig rasslin'. You jus' gits dirty and the pig likes it.

942 posted on 06/24/2003 6:46:52 AM PDT by VadeRetro
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To: VadeRetro
But your "evidence" is so weak. Hypotheticals in almost every case. Single, unique fossils that may be interpretated a dozen or more ways. Fruitflies that turn into weird fruitflies. All the old, discredited stuff. I could easily discredit much of that silliness, but it has been done over and over on this board and elsewhere.

If you want respect, you need to agree to two things that every prominent paleontologist and scientist know, including your heroes like Gould, Dawkins, Eldridge, Crick, Provine. They are:

1. The fossil record is a major problem for Darwinists. It doesn't show what Darwin predicted. You especially have to acknowledge the hugh problem of the Cambrian Explosion. Sure, you can try to explain away the problem. We expect you to. But to come on here, or anywhere else and say the fossil record supports evolution is to discredit yourself immediately, as not even your experts claim such a thing.

2. Acknowledge that the lack of transitional creatures in nature is also a problem, as Darwin himself recognized. Again, you can try to explain it, as Gould has with the concept of Punctuated Equilibrium, but you must recognize it is a problem for you. Otherwise, again, you lose all credibility and sound like Sidney Blumenthal on the Clintons.

Now, I believe those are the only two hard and fast rules that can immediately destroy your credibility. However, if you really want to earn our respect, don't try to convince us with silly nonsense such as peppered moths, finch beaks, dog breeding (what was Charles thinking?), fruitfly experiments, and, especially, that dinosaur to bird nonsense. The apparent speciation (in a very limited sense) of the finches at the Galapagos is fair, although I don't think it takes you far, though it is a fascinating piece of nature at work.

OK. I think I've told how NOT to look like a fool right off the bat. Oh, and comparing human and chimp DNA really does nothing for me, as you cannot explain how it happened. But, whatever.

I have to leave for a couple of weeks, but will look you up when I get back. I am sorry if I tweaked too hard, as I really don't want to make any of this personal. My sincere apologies, Vade, as we agree on so much. Take care and I'll holler at you when I get back.

943 posted on 06/24/2003 6:59:04 AM PDT by Timmy
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To: Aric2000
... unprecedented ---

Syllables: un-prec-e-dent-ed

Part of Speech adjective

Pronunciation uhn preh sih dehn tihd

Definition 1. having no precedent; never before observed or experienced.

Related Words prodigious , original , phenomenal , novel , miraculous

944 posted on 06/24/2003 7:29:15 AM PDT by f.Christian (( Shock -- revelations (( designed universe )) ... AWE --- you haven't seen anything - yet ))
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To: Timmy
If you want respect ...

I set a bad tone, back in 580, so I can't complain there.

... you need to agree to two things that every prominent paleontologist and scientist know, including your heroes like Gould, Dawkins, Eldridge, Crick, Provine. They are:

1. The fossil record is a major problem for Darwinists. It doesn't show what Darwin predicted. You especially have to acknowledge the hugh problem of the Cambrian Explosion. Sure, you can try to explain away the problem. We expect you to. But to come on here, or anywhere else and say the fossil record supports evolution is to discredit yourself immediately, as not even your experts claim such a thing.
However, I correctly pointed out in 580 that you were begging the "no-evidence" question, and your response to the prosecution coming in and dumping a big pile of evidence on the table: the bones, the forensic lab reports, the eyewitness accounts, is to appeal to the "known lack of evidence." You simply continue to beg the question.

As to the Cambrian, when Alamo-Girl posted an actual paper (by the prestigious un-Discovery Institute ("Trying to wish the established body of human learning away since about 1992") on why this is supposed to be such a problem, I read it and explained why I was not impressed. My words, although links to other publications are made therein.

BTW, when claiming that "there's no evidence," disallowing anything from established science sources as opposed to an FR poster's own words is rather silly. If all I had were my own words, that would be evidence that there's no evidence. That I can point you to large bodies of knowledge in paleontogy, molecular biology, etc. which completely undermine your claim is actually rather bad for you.

2. Acknowledge that the lack of transitional creatures in nature is also a problem, as Darwin himself recognized. Again, you can try to explain it, as Gould has with the concept of Punctuated Equilibrium, but you must recognize it is a problem for you. Otherwise, again, you lose all credibility and sound like Sidney Blumenthal on the Clintons.
A real familiarity with Gould's writings will show that he does not help or support you in any way. You are familiar with collections of snippets no bigger than three sentences together and most of those are studded with ellipses. Dishonest creationist quote-mine science. Basically, everything you think you know is wrong.

And you are begging the question, still/again. Post 580 has photographs, articles, a pile of evidence. You dismiss by saying I first have to acknowledge the lack of evidence before you will deign to look at the evidence.

... and, especially, that dinosaur to bird nonsense.

But the evidence keeps coming in. There are all those specimens that have some features of reptiles and some of modern birds. You have not explained why there's nothing to explain, there. Evolution sees the question and answers it. Creation science closes its eyes and says, "I see nothing to explain." It's the same trick over and over on the questions I posted in 704 to ALS. You don't learn anything new by denying there's anything out there that needs explaining.

I have to leave for a couple of weeks, but will look you up when I get back. I am sorry if I tweaked too hard, as I really don't want to make any of this personal. My sincere apologies, Vade, as we agree on so much. Take care and I'll holler at you when I get back.

Nothing personal meant here, either. See you when you're back!

945 posted on 06/24/2003 7:56:34 AM PDT by VadeRetro
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To: bondserv
Enviroment can trigger genetic changes in the information that is already contained in the DNA.

That was the theory of genetics favored by Stalin. Any biologist who disagreed was imprisoned or executed. I wasn't aware that conservatives favored Stalin's scientific theories.

946 posted on 06/24/2003 8:00:46 AM PDT by js1138
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To: RadioAstronomer
I like this one:

http://home.austarnet.com.au/stear/bartelt_dissertation_on_hovind_thesis.htm
947 posted on 06/24/2003 8:26:32 AM PDT by js1138
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To: VadeRetro
But the evidence keeps coming in. There are all those specimens that have some features of reptiles and some of modern birds. You have not explained why there's nothing to explain, there.

You know, if this was supposed to be a mystery movie and all this obvious evidence kept piling up and being ignored by the characters, the movie-goers would be demanding their money back after the first ten minutes and would probably string up the director after the credits rolled.

948 posted on 06/24/2003 8:39:19 AM PDT by balrog666 (When in doubt, tell the truth. - Mark Twain)
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To: js1138; RadioAstronomer
That's a good one. How anyone can respect this man is beyond me. What a bum.

How does one speak, "over 700 times a year?" I guess if he's still using the biblical definition of a day or something? It brings to mind Wilt Chamberlains claims...

949 posted on 06/24/2003 8:41:52 AM PDT by whattajoke
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To: VadeRetro
high signal-to-insult ratio thread for a change placemarker
950 posted on 06/24/2003 8:49:44 AM PDT by longshadow
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To: bondserv
If fraudulant claims begin to hinder the administration of the church, safeguards can be required to eliminate most instances of priest to child interaction across the board.

I once worked for a state agency in a job that required me to transport delinquent girls to court hearings, foster homes, etc. I guarantee that any individual or institution can eliminate false claims of abuse by taking a few obvious precautions, such as recording departure and arrival times, leaving doors to offices open, etc.

I cannot understand why an institution that has had repeated problems with abuse does not have procedures in place that would eliminate the opportunities.

951 posted on 06/24/2003 8:59:19 AM PDT by js1138
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To: whattajoke
How does one speak, "over 700 times a year?"

"Hi, how are you?" "Pass the salt!" "What time is it?" "Hey, little girl, you want some candy?" are counted as separate speeches?

952 posted on 06/24/2003 9:30:54 AM PDT by VadeRetro
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To: js1138
So you are saying you can't get a tan, or that your blisters never turn to calluses?

These genetic bits of information are turned off until they are triggered by the enviroment i.e. vacations, shoveling tent posts on the ranch without gloves...
953 posted on 06/24/2003 9:33:55 AM PDT by bondserv (Alignment is critical)
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To: balrog666
"There's no proof that we're being killed off one by one by one ..."

... as the audience throws popcorn at the screen.

954 posted on 06/24/2003 9:38:52 AM PDT by VadeRetro
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To: js1138
View his material then get back to us.

You are going to an Al Gore lover for your accessment.

The points made by this lady are regarding Hovinds speculation of how the Bible fits the evidence, and nothing to do with the evidence he presents that disputes evolution.
955 posted on 06/24/2003 9:44:04 AM PDT by bondserv (Alignment is critical)
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To: VadeRetro; balrog666
Also, there's no proof that Saddam had WMD, no proof that Iraq was connected to Osama, no proof that Clinton had sex with that woman, no proof that Reagan's tax cuts benefited the economy, no proof that OJ slit that girl's throat ...

Therefore, creationism is true.
QED

956 posted on 06/24/2003 9:46:47 AM PDT by PatrickHenry (Felix, qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas.)
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To: All
300 Creationist Lies (all from Kent Hovind).
957 posted on 06/24/2003 9:48:47 AM PDT by PatrickHenry (Felix, qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas.)
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To: bondserv
Hovind has repeatedly presented "evidence" so preposterous, that (as you saw yesterday), leading creationist organizations (AiG) have distanced themselves from him.

I have "evidence" of a masters from an accredited university. He doesn't, and then he tries to "Clinton" his way around the issue.

I have "evidence" for paying my taxes. He doesn't, therefore he's in trouble.

Scientists the world over have evidence supporting evolution. Hovind has a few catch phrases and a cultish following that turns a blind eye to his many frauds, lies, and scams.

The day Hovind presents some "evidence" for any one of his views, he'll be vindicated and lauded. I won't hold my breath. (the dude believes humans and dinosaurs walked side by side. Isn't that enough to discredit him right there?)

958 posted on 06/24/2003 9:51:20 AM PDT by whattajoke
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To: whattajoke
Please list said catch phrases that relate to evolution to demonstrate your ability to access his compiled evidence.

I continue to hear slander of his character, whether his degree is legitamate, how he uses the bible to explain science ...

Let's try this, you view his information, ignore his views on how it fits together, only focus on the evidence you deem is reputable and give us your explaination.

He covers so much information that is verifiable and I see no one attempting to come up with explainations for it.

Hovind is bold and willing to speak his mind in public for all to see, and he is sincere in his quest for the truth.

Taxes, Communism, Degrees, Cults and AiG have nothing to do with the evidence for evolution. Look at yourselves and see what you are focusing on! And that was just this post.

P.S. Most of our government is unconstitutional.
959 posted on 06/24/2003 10:05:57 AM PDT by bondserv (Alignment is critical)
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To: bondserv
Hovind is bold and willing to speak his mind in public for all to see, and he is sincere in his quest for the truth.

So is Castro. So is Kim Jung Il. etc. So what? It is a commonly known tenet that the more wacky the viewpoint, the more difficult it is to give an educated rebuttal.

Case in point. "Dr" Dino's website has this fascinating display of photos showing what he supposedly believes to be modern dinosaur evidences. Loch Ness Monster. Champy from Lake Champlain. Plesiosaurs from Japan and California. A "unidentified" baby dino from Lake Erie. (If he can't determine what that one is, he's truly lost). No mention that half his evidences are from salt water and the others are from fresh water lakes, which renders his point moot, to my mind. No mention that Loch Ness has been trawled a few times using state of the art equipment, wasting plenty of money, to no avail. No mention that the Champlain picture is a set of rocks on view to anyone from the shore in Burlington,VT.

If all this were the wishful thinking of an 8 year old, I'd let it slide. But from the fervid mind of Hovind? I've real problems with the man's integrity.
960 posted on 06/24/2003 10:44:20 AM PDT by whattajoke
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