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If Secession Was Illegal - then How Come...?
The Patriotist ^ | 2003 | Al Benson, Jr.

Posted on 06/12/2003 5:58:28 AM PDT by Aurelius

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To: nolu chan
[Wlat] Douglass seeems ill-informed.

It is indeed unfortunate that you were not there at the time to keep Frederick Douglass up to date.

Well, he seems to have missed all this:

12/24/62:

Jefferson Davis issues a proclamation which states (1) White officers of black troops will not be treated as POWs; (2) The black troops themselves will not be treated as POWs; (3) Union Maj. Gen. Benjamin Butler is to be hanged w/o trial immediately upon being captured; (4) No Union officers will be paroled until Butler is caught and hanged. All four of these provisions were violations of the Dix-Hill Cartel.

12/28/62:

In response to Davis's proclamation, the Federals end the exchange and parole of Confederate officers.

5/25/63:

Non-exchange and parole of Confederate officers is re-affirmed in orders from Halleck to all commanders in the field. This is done largely in response to the CS Congress passing a law implementing a small variation of Davis's 12/24/62 proclamation.

7/13/63:

Secretary of War Stanton orders an end to the exchange and parole of enlisted men. This is done largely because of increasing arguments over the parole provisions of the cartel, and the feeling that this aspect of the agreement is (unfairly) being manipulated by the Confederates to their advantage.

Fall, 1863:

Confederates return to service most of the Vicksburg garrison, an act which the Federals claim is not justified by the cartel. This hardens Federal attitudes towards the exchange process. So, as of 1/1/64, the exchange cartel is more or less entirely disrupted, as a result of reasonable objections being made by the Federals, and we have yet to see US Grant's name being mentioned. Now, here comes his involvement:

4/17/64:

Lt. Gen. US Grant issues orders that exchanges remain halted until the Confederates compensate the Yankees for the release of the Vicksburg garrison, *and* agree to treat black soldiers equally with white. Grant's role was to confirm a policy already in place, a policy reached as a result of difficulties in managing the cartel. Grant's views on exchange are well-known: He thought it was a bad idea. There's a quote from him to the effect that re-opening exchange might be humanity towards the men in the camps, but keeping it closed was humanity towards the men in the ranks. That's a harsh judgment, but it is no less accurate for being harsh.

-- Jim Epperson

[end]

Walt

1,481 posted on 07/11/2003 5:55:12 AM PDT by WhiskeyPapa (Virtue is the uncontested prize.)
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To: WhiskeyPapa
By now you have been bombarded with various quotes of your hallowed Abe's musings on the issue of race. Your boy was well known to let loose with some highly toxic comments regarding the slavery issue. You can whitewash it all you want, but the facts are clear, and Abe is saddled with his own words. My God, you are so fanatical in your adoration of Lincoln that you can't even admit he was a flawed man, just like many other men on this planet were -- and are -- flawed. Your blind love affair with Abraham Lincoln negates the validity and credibility of any position you may have on the matter.
1,482 posted on 07/11/2003 6:04:57 AM PDT by ought-six
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To: capitan_refugio; stand watie
"In the War for Southern Independence, revisionist history start with Alexander H. Stephens book, "A Constitutional View of the War Between the States" (1868) and Jefferson Davis's book "Rise and Fall of the Confederate Government" (1881)."

Democrats such as Jefferson Davis and Alexander Stephens started the pro-Confederate revisionist nonsense which Democrats have continued ever since.


1,483 posted on 07/11/2003 6:25:30 AM PDT by Grand Old Partisan (You can read about my history of the GOP at www.republicanbasics.com)
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To: nolu chan
Frederick Douglass was no more an authority about the war than anyone else.
1,484 posted on 07/11/2003 6:27:32 AM PDT by Grand Old Partisan (You can read about my history of the GOP at www.republicanbasics.com)
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To: rustbucket; capitan_refugio
"I've seen the Stephens book but not the Davis one. In what way were these books revisionist?"

They laud the rebellious Democrats of the Confederacy.
1,485 posted on 07/11/2003 6:29:06 AM PDT by Grand Old Partisan (You can read about my history of the GOP at www.republicanbasics.com)
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To: Non-Sequitur
Robert Lincoln did serve in the army during the Civil War
1,486 posted on 07/11/2003 6:32:35 AM PDT by Grand Old Partisan (You can read about my history of the GOP at www.republicanbasics.com)
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To: rustbucket; stand watie; WhiskeyPapa; Non-Sequitur; capitan_refugio
The Democrat revisionism, begun by Davis and Stephens, is that the Confederates rebelled against the united States Government for reasons other than to preserve slavery. All this Democrat nonsense about tariffs and such is revisonist drivel.
1,487 posted on 07/11/2003 6:37:57 AM PDT by Grand Old Partisan (You can read about my history of the GOP at www.republicanbasics.com)
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To: capitan_refugio
A Constitutional View is, alas, another refrain in a song composed and performed by John C. Calhoun and the South Carolina nullifiers."

It sounds as if Owens is making a big deal out of the obvious, so what's your point?

1,488 posted on 07/11/2003 7:41:58 AM PDT by GOPcapitalist
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To: Grand Old Partisan
Frederick Douglass was no more an authority about the war than anyone else.

As a newspaper man and a regular public speaker on political issues it is highly likely that he was better versed in the events of the war than your average citizen. Same goes for Horace Greeley who corroborated Douglass' comments about the black confederates.

1,489 posted on 07/11/2003 7:46:31 AM PDT by GOPcapitalist
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To: GOPcapitalist
Frederick Douglass had no better information on what was going on in the war than did other people. Horace Greeley was a crackpot.
1,490 posted on 07/11/2003 7:50:13 AM PDT by Grand Old Partisan (You can read about my history of the GOP at www.republicanbasics.com)
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To: Grand Old Partisan
All this Democrat nonsense about tariffs and such is revisonist drivel.

If that were true, statements such as the following would not exist:

"Sir, I have presented these views in regard to this tariff for the purpose of showing how it will operate upon the whole country; for the purpose of showing how it will operate upon the non-slaveholding States themselves. I have said nothing about my own State [Virginia] or my own section. Within the last four or five years, my State has been reviving; the tide of emigration, which was getting out to a great degree, has ceased; the statistics will show that she has been increasing in population and wealth. But pass this bill, and you send a blight over that land; the tide of emigration will commence - I fear to flow outward - once more, and we shall begin to decline and retrograde, instead of advancing, as I had fondly hoped we should do. And what I say of my own State I may justly say of the other southern States. But, sir, I do not press that view of the subject. I know that here we are too weak to resist or to defend ourselves; those who sympathize with our wrongs are too weak to help us; those who are strong enough to help us do not sympathize with our wrongs, or whatever we may suffer under it. No, sir; this bill will pass. And let it pass into the statute-book; let it pass into history, that we may know how it is that the South has been dealt with when New England and Pennsylvania held the power to deal with her interests." - Sen. Robert M T Hunter on the Morrill Tariff, US Senate, Feb 12, 1861

...but I'm sure you've got a goofy non-response for that too. Let me guess what it will be: To bolster their "revisionist" tariff theory the democrat confederates used their super secret connections within the Knights of the Golden Circle, the freemasons, and the Vatican to sneak into the library of congress and insert anti-tariff speeches into the record that they could then cite as proof of their earlier objections against Mr. Morrill's bill.

1,491 posted on 07/11/2003 7:52:22 AM PDT by GOPcapitalist
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To: Grand Old Partisan
Frederick Douglass had no better information on what was going on in the war than did other people.

Douglass was a newspaper man and a public political speaker. He therefore had better access to the current events of the day than most people.

Horace Greeley was a crackpot.

Calling him names, deserved or not, in no way changes the fact that he was a newspaper man as well with extensive access to current events information that most people of the time did not have.

1,492 posted on 07/11/2003 7:54:40 AM PDT by GOPcapitalist
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To: GOPcapitalist
FD: "therefore" -- illogical

HG: was a crackpot -- denying it pits you against the facts
1,493 posted on 07/11/2003 7:56:28 AM PDT by Grand Old Partisan (You can read about my history of the GOP at www.republicanbasics.com)
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To: GOPcapitalist
"Let me guess" -- you lose

1,494 posted on 07/11/2003 7:57:33 AM PDT by Grand Old Partisan (You can read about my history of the GOP at www.republicanbasics.com)
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To: ought-six
Your boy was well known to let loose with some highly toxic comments regarding the slavery issue.

My "boy" was well known to say that the Declaration of Independence was meant to apply to all men.

Lincoln was a life long opponent of slavery.

He never called blacks inferior. He is clearly on the record as saying that black soldiers should have the vote.

He never suggested that anyone be forced to leave the country.

Walt

1,495 posted on 07/11/2003 8:02:40 AM PDT by WhiskeyPapa (Virtue is the uncontested prize.)
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To: WhiskeyPapa; ought-six
These neo-Confederates show their hatred for the United States of America by referring to a President of the United States -- and the best one, too -- as "boy".
1,496 posted on 07/11/2003 8:05:26 AM PDT by Grand Old Partisan (You can read about my history of the GOP at www.republicanbasics.com)
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To: GOPcapitalist
Interesting, but inconclusive to the extent that Clinton is concerned

I'm not here to argue the merits of the Clinton impeachment, only that opposition to the impeachment on constitutional grounds is NOT a far-left position as you have indicated.

Constitutional scholars may disagree, but the concept of 'high' crimes as consisting of those against the public interest [as opposed to private matters], is well founded in English Common Law. Blackstone himself has written in support of this restrictive interpretation.

Your refusal to acknowlege this simple fact is further evidence of the weakness of your position against McPherson. That you claim to have "researched" the subject before posting your polemic, is, well...laughable.

1,497 posted on 07/11/2003 8:05:26 AM PDT by mac_truck (Long Live Fredonia!)
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To: Grand Old Partisan
FD: "therefore" -- illogical

Do you deny then that newspaper men have generally better access and knowledge of current events than the average citizen?

HG: was a crackpot -- denying it pits you against the facts

Nowhere did I deny Greeley's eccentricities. But attacking his character does nothing to disprove his profession as a newspaper man, which means that he generally had better access to current events than the average citizen.

1,498 posted on 07/11/2003 8:12:37 AM PDT by GOPcapitalist
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To: GOPcapitalist
Frederick Douglass and Horace Greeley had no access at all to the operational aspects of the war, especially the existence of those phantom black Confderates whom neo-Confederates love to conjure up. Your relying one ill-informed source to corroborate another is highly illogical.
1,499 posted on 07/11/2003 8:20:19 AM PDT by Grand Old Partisan (You can read about my history of the GOP at www.republicanbasics.com)
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To: GOPcapitalist
Frederick Douglass and Horace Greeley had no access at all to the operational aspects of the war, especially the existence of those phantom black Confderates whom neo-Confederates love to conjure up. Your relying on one ill-informed source to corroborate another is highly illogical.
1,500 posted on 07/11/2003 8:21:00 AM PDT by Grand Old Partisan (You can read about my history of the GOP at www.republicanbasics.com)
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