Genetic Changes In Mice 'Question Evolution Speed'

Ananova ^ | 5-21-2003

[Dimensio]

Now that I have access to a text-only browser I can see that your picture wasn't really a statement of challenge so much as a statement of your anticipation. OF course, your original challenge is meaningless, because no professional scientist claims that the theory of evolution explains the ultimate orign of life. Only lying creationists assert en masse that evolution has anything to do with the ultimate origins of life.

[AndrewC]

Are you contending that the modern coelacanth should be classified as the same species as one of the fossil forms?

The question is of relevant change. The fact of change of some sort is not being argued. The definition of species is peripheral to question of changing a reptile into a dog. The title of this thread involves speed of change. That is what is in question here not the fact of change.

[Stultis]

So your source (implicitly) argues that the rate of change in putatively neutral molecular characters (selected regions of the DNA) is roughly constant -- this being how the time of divergence between the two existing populations of coelacanth was determined -- whereas morphological evoltution is not necessarily constant in rate, and can even halt for long periods.

I agree and see no problem with this.

[AndrewC]

Prehistoric and modern coelacanths are not even in the same genus, much less species.

Camels and llamas separated some 40 million years ago. They are not of the same genus.

[Lurking Libertarian]

Modern and ancient coelacanths are in the same order, not the same genus. Llamas and camels are in the same order, not the same genus. Humans and chimps are in the same order, not the same genus (though some argue that chimps should be put into genus homo, that is still a minority position). Humans and gorillas are in the same order, not the same genus.

Your point was?

[AndrewC]

Your point was?

The picture is a llama/camel baby.

[Lurking Libertarian]

Didn't know that. Interesting.

[Stultis]

The picture is a llama/camel baby.

So?

[AndrewC]

I agree and see no problem with this.

Another point in the reference was that morphological differences observed by the first team between the two species were not observed to be there when compared to the variation in one of the species.(my wording may be bad)

[AndrewC]

So?

What is the definition of a species/genus?

[Stultis]

What is the definition of a species/genus?

Can you put that question in the form of having a point?

[Stultis]

morphological differences observed by the first team between the two species were not observed to be there when compared to the variation in one of the species

No, your wording was fine. That made sense. There's always the risk (in any circumstance) of a small sample not being representative.

[AndrewC]

Can you put that question in the form of having a point?

Definitions are a Darwinian's best friend.

[Lurking Libertarian]

What is the definition of a species/genus?

A group of organisms whose members can interbreed and produce fertile offspring.

Are llama-camel hybrids fertile?

[Stultis]

Definitions are a Darwinian's best friend.

Uh, nope, sorry. Still not discerning a point.

[Stultis]

A group of organisms whose members can interbreed

Careful. Natural populations... and interbreeding means doing so (or potentially doing so) in nature. For example humans have to intervene to "trick" horses and asses into mating (usually via a "bait and switch" method) and thereby hybridizing.

[Stultis]

A group of organisms whose members can interbreed

Careful. Natural populations... and interbreeding means doing so (or potentially doing so) in nature. For example humans have to intervene to "trick" horses and asses into mating (usually via a "bait and switch" method) and thereby hybridizing.

[Lurking Libertarian]

Good point. Camels and llamas can similarly be bred only by artificial insemination.

[AndrewC]

(or potentially doing so) in nature.

Are you betting on the word potentially?

[LibWhacker]

Anyone with a brain can see mice are evolving like crazy . . . For instance, who had a wheel on their mouse 20 years ago?