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Yard chief calls for drugs trade to be legalised
The Sunday Telegraph (UK) ^ | 05/18/2003 | David Bamber

Posted on 05/19/2003 10:48:55 AM PDT by MrLeRoy

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1 posted on 05/19/2003 10:48:56 AM PDT by MrLeRoy
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To: *Wod_list; jmc813
Wod_list ping
2 posted on 05/19/2003 10:49:12 AM PDT by MrLeRoy (The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. - Jefferson)
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To: Wolfie; vin-one; WindMinstrel; philman_36; Beach_Babe; jenny65; AUgrad; Xenalyte; Bill D. Berger; ..
WOD Ping
3 posted on 05/19/2003 10:51:58 AM PDT by jmc813 (After two years of FReeping, I've finally created a profile page. Check it out!)
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To: MrLeRoy
Notice, someone who opposes drug abuse and doesn't seem to be hankering to use the stuff himself, who has come to the conclusion that treating the drug trade as a criminal rather than a public health issue does more harm than good.

He, unlike I, has a settle opinion that this is the case for all drugs. Now, before this thread erupts into the usual WOD idiocy with libertarians talking at cross purposes with no-brain-chemistry-modification puritans. Could we have a brief interlude where the question of whether the prohibition of particular drugs does more harm than good?

4 posted on 05/19/2003 10:56:50 AM PDT by The_Reader_David
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To: MrLeRoy
Having read Theodore Dalrymple's Life At The Bottom I wonder that by this philosophy,
Britain shouldn't abandon what barely passes for law enforcement over therepy altogether.
5 posted on 05/19/2003 10:57:18 AM PDT by onedoug
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To: MrLeRoy
>>"Policing cannabis is a waste of our time as I do not feel the effects of cannabis are any worse than over-consumption of alcohol." <<

He's right. I would even submit that alcohol is a far worse evil, both to society and to the human body, than cannabis.

He's very brave to admit the truth that the war on drugs was lost long ago. He'll probably be fired
6 posted on 05/19/2003 11:03:16 AM PDT by Risa
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To: The_Reader_David
Could we have a brief interlude where the question of whether the prohibition of particular drugs does more harm than good?

OK, if I may first note that the prohibition of any drug does harm to the principle that adults should be free to make their own non-rights-violating choices (even if the choices they make are stupid).

That grave harm aside, it's possible in principle that some prohibitions do more good than harm while other prohibitions do more harm than good. In practice, though, the most harmful drugs tend to also be the most addictive---hence the most strongly desired---hence the most expensive, and most conducive to the harms of prohibition.

7 posted on 05/19/2003 11:11:32 AM PDT by MrLeRoy (The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. - Jefferson)
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To: onedoug
Having read Theodore Dalrymple's Life At The Bottom

Bully for you. Were you planning on telling us what it said?

8 posted on 05/19/2003 11:12:36 AM PDT by MrLeRoy (The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. - Jefferson)
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To: MrLeRoy
I essentially did. "...what barely passes for law enforcement over therepy...."

And I gave the name of the book.

Good day to you, too.

9 posted on 05/19/2003 11:17:04 AM PDT by onedoug
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To: MrLeRoy
The War On Drugs is a War on the American People. It is a counterproductive waste of public money and it is destroying America and our Rights.

The people who are most interested in keeping the War On Drugs alive are those who profit from it. Legalizing Marijuanna or any of the stuff Congress likes to call controlled substances, would eliminate the multibillion dollar profits and quickly reduce the market size. Users would be buying in stores licensed and taxed by the government, with the tax revenue going into rehabilitation programs. Even worse for the drug barons, the glamour of doing something illegal would be gone for the teenagers, and there would be no reason left for the drug gangs to hire them to push the stuff in school yards and keep the list of customers multiplying. No more knife fights and gun battles for market territory. No more no-knock raids on innocent people. No more dealers standing on neighborhood street corners. No more confiscated property.

Legalizing and licensing knocks out the profits. Politicians who support the War On Drugs are doing so for one reason only, they have a lobbiest funded by a drug baron slipping large quantities of cash into their pockets to keep the drug profits flowing. Their interest is in keeping the War On Drugs alive, well funded, and managed with the same bungling incompetence that has filled the prison system with bottom-level dealers and users, and left the big operators untroubled and the price of cocaine and heroin profitably high.

The advertisng campaigns currently used to combat drug use are part of the problem. Teenagers who have tried drugs compare the advertising to their personal experiences with the drugs and decide the government is feeding them a pile of B.S. From that point on they view anything the government tells them as propoganda no matter what the subject. This leads to a serious erosion in their faith in our political system and the intelligence and honesty of our politicians. Intelligently educating people on the dangers of drugs such as crack, cocaine, PCP, heroin, crystal methedrine, etc. would be much more efective than the current system.

Part of the tax money raised from the sale of the drugs can go into the general tax fund. That combined with the hundreds of billions of dollars of savings from eliminating the War On Drugs and the hundreds of billions of dollars of savings from reducing the number of people currently incarcerated in our prison system for drug use combined with the income taxes paid by the drug users who would be working and paying taxes instead living off our tax dollars in jail would make a tremendous differnce in reducing our overall tax burden.

10 posted on 05/19/2003 11:28:58 AM PDT by FreeLibertarian (You live and learn. Or you don't live long.)
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To: FreeLibertarian
Give it up.

All drug users are by definition criminals. Criminals are all scum.

Therefore, we should vigorously prosecute and imprison these criminals (users) as well as their dealers (criminal free market capitalists) regardless of costs (we should not let cost interfere with our prosecution of criminals.) After all, we don't let murderers off because it is expensive to keep them on death row.

Also, all drug users are immoral, by definition. We are not going to align ourselves with the forces of immorality. (Gambling, drinking alcohol, tobacco, and wild dance, while previously considered immoral are now okay because they are legal. What is illegal is by definition immoral.

Besides, they are all unwashed hippie anti-conservatives anyway, so screw them.

11 posted on 05/19/2003 11:45:13 AM PDT by dark_lord (The Statue of Liberty now holds a baseball bat and she's yelling 'You want a piece of me?')
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To: MrLeRoy
Not all agree that adults should be free to make any "non-rights-violating" choice, and even if we agree to that proposition, there are harms done to family members, coworkers, employers, et al. by the impared state of a habitual drug user.

I proposed an analogy: the state has a legitimate interest in preventing highwire walkers from falling on disinterested partys below, even thought competent highwire walking might be argued to be a "non-rights-violating" choice. The question is whether a regime of no-knock laws, wiretaps, universal prohibition of equipment used in highwire walking, etc. is more or less harmful than lax enforcement, or abolition of laws against stringing highwires across busy streets. I think the harm of letting the occasional highwire walker fall (even onto disinterested innocents) is less than the harm of the bizarre strict enforcement regime I suggested.

This is admittedly a silly example, but it does highlight the possibility of harms to others in what would appear prima facia to be a non-rights-violating choice.

I see, we don't get the interlude of rational discussion I had hoped for. You libertarians just jump right in with philosophical assertions of abstract rights. I guess it will be only a few more posts and we'll have the "drugs ruin lives and therefore any enforcement measures are justifiable" types weighing in.

12 posted on 05/19/2003 11:50:09 AM PDT by The_Reader_David
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To: dark_lord
In Communist Albania, your amazing reasoning applied to private businessmen and pious observant Christians, they were by definition criminals. The state vigorous prosecuted and imprisoned them.

According to you, since what is illegal is by definition immoral, it was immoral to be a private businessman or pious observant Christian in Albania until recently. Of course, I guess, someone with the screen name dark_lord might be expected to take the view that might makes right, and therefore the dictates of the state are the definition of morality. On the other hand, I don't think you'll find much sympathy for your position among the vast majority of posters here who harbor the American Founding-Fathers' suspicion of the state.

13 posted on 05/19/2003 11:55:03 AM PDT by The_Reader_David
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To: MrLeRoy
How'd this guy get on George Soros' payroll? ;)
14 posted on 05/19/2003 11:59:27 AM PDT by xrp
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To: dark_lord
Give it up.

Fighting to keep this nation Free is a goal that I will never surrender.

The rest of your response is just circular logic. A good programmer would reccognize it for what is, useless code and wasted memory space.

15 posted on 05/19/2003 12:07:07 PM PDT by FreeLibertarian (You live and learn. Or you don't live long.)
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To: The_Reader_David
there are harms done to family members, coworkers, employers, et al. by the impared state of a habitual drug user.

Not all harms are government's business---certainly not the harm an employee does his employer by using drugs, or drinking, or staying up too late the night before work, etc.

I proposed an analogy: the state has a legitimate interest in preventing highwire walkers from falling on disinterested partys below, even thought competent highwire walking might be argued to be a "non-rights-violating" choice.

I reject the analogy; the highwire walker is a single slip away from being a clear and present danger, whereas a string of bad choices lie between a drug user and e.g. his neglect of spousal or parental obligations.

I see, we don't get the interlude of rational discussion I had hoped for. You libertarians just jump right in with philosophical assertions of abstract rights.

How did you miss the second of my two paragraphs?

16 posted on 05/19/2003 12:26:56 PM PDT by MrLeRoy (The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. - Jefferson)
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To: FreeLibertarian; The_Reader_David; dark_lord
IMHO, this should have tipped you off that dark_lord was being sarcastic:

Gambling, drinking alcohol, tobacco, and wild dance, while previously considered immoral are now okay because they are legal. What is illegal is by definition immoral.

Besides, they are all unwashed hippie anti-conservatives anyway, so screw them.

17 posted on 05/19/2003 12:31:06 PM PDT by MrLeRoy (The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. - Jefferson)
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To: FreeLibertarian; dark_lord
The rest of your response is just circular logic. A good programmer would reccognize it for what is, useless code and wasted memory space.

Based on some of d_l's other posts, I believe he has displayed sarcasm in his post. Actually a pretty good Dane, Kevin Curry, CAGuy, Cultural Jihad impersonation.

18 posted on 05/19/2003 12:34:02 PM PDT by ActionNewsBill (Police state? What police state?)
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To: FreeLibertarian; dark_lord
The rest of your response is just circular logic. A good programmer would reccognize it for what is, useless code and wasted memory space.

Based on some of d_l's other posts, I believe he has displayed sarcasm in his post. Actually a pretty good Dane, Kevin Curry, CAGuy, Cultural Jihad impersonation.

19 posted on 05/19/2003 12:35:51 PM PDT by ActionNewsBill (Police state? What police state?)
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To: MrLeRoy; dark_lord
Wild dance is back in? See ya later, I've got some frugging to do.
20 posted on 05/19/2003 12:38:13 PM PDT by Wolfie
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