Posted on 01/31/2003 12:21:22 PM PST by scripter
Nice dodge. We've seen no scholars that read the passage the way you read it. In fact each scholar states the wisdom in James is specific to the context of trials. You admit this yourself.
The verses James may have used as a basis for this thought, Matt 7:7 and Luke 11:9 are the verses to claim in prayer. Every scholar we've seen has said just that. In your profound ignorance of all things Greek you disagree, yet you cannot make your case from the Greek and you don't even try. Then you lambast me for actually agreeing with the Greek scholars that just so happen to come to the same conclusion I've come to while studying the same passage.
Your inability to make your case from the Greek speaks volumes.
Your inability to provide one Greek source that agrees with you speaks volumes. Despite your statements they exist, you don't provide a single reference and hide behind the sand foundation that an appeal to authority is an invalid argument. You have nothing in support of your position.
Still trying to pretend Calvin said something other than he did, huh?
Still don't understand context? Calvin states the wisdom is specific to the context and you try to ignore his statement and pull a latter statement out of context. The battle for your mind is real, Grig.
And both go on to indicate that what is said in v5 can be applied far more generally than just that, contrary to your oft stated claim.
My oft stated claim has been solid and unwavering from the beginning. That is, the idea behind asking God for wisdom can be found in Matt 7:7 and Luke 11:9. You refuse to acknowledge this fact.
You make it perfectly clear that no matter who says it, no matter how they word it, you will twist it and force the square peg of truth into the round hole of your opinion.
Nice try, Grig. You try harder than most to avoid the real issues here. That is, admitting you are changing the intent of James. At the very beginning you said pulling it out of context doesn't mean you're changing the original intent of the author. When I demonstrated you are doing just that you go into ignore mode and refuse to answer the tough questions. In fact you delete the tough questions in each post. That speaks volumes.
LOL! Calvin doesn't bring up those verses untill paragraphs later. By your own method of determining context Calvin is talking about v5 when he says it can be applied generally and you know it.
Psst. Your ignorance is showing again. You appear to forget you are reading a translation of Calvin and you use misdirection in some attempt to make it appear Calvin separates verse 5 from the references to Matt 7:7 and Luke 11:9.
The URL I provided has you greatly confused. My translation of Calvin and every other Greek scholar I've found ties verse 5 to Matt 7:7 and Luke 11:9. That you try to make it appear otherwise tells me you are not after the truth as you claim. In my translation, Calvin states the wisdom of James 1:5 is specific to trials and the next paragraph, the very next paragraph, not paragraphs later with which you try to use as misdirection; that next paragraph states the idea of asking God for wisdom probably comes from Matt 7:7 and Luke 11:9. You are trying to pull phrases from verse 5 out of context to support your eisegesis.
It might be unfair to say you are trying to use misdirection. I say that because you may not know any better due to a lack of education on the topic, which you admit yourself.
No, I don't insist on that. I insist on calling interpretaion what it is.
Yeah, that's why you refuse to answer the tough questions. I'll rephrase for the lurkers who may not have read the background:
There are indeed words in verse 5 that are also in verse 4, tying the two verses together there. There is also the "if But" at the beginning of verse 5 that ties the previous verses together, something you want to avoid admitting.
You have never answered that question as well.
You have never answered that question as well.
I said Greek is not the issue here. It must be frustrating to see all you attempts at distraction ignored.
Nice dodge again. You cannot make your case from the Greek so you say Greek is not the issue here. That speaks volumes.
If you can't make your case from the Greek you should just admit it and move on.
Not the issue, I said it was not LIMITED to just the context and you have not shown from the Greek or any other way how it is limited to only the context. Calvin comes out and says plain as day that it can be applied generally and STILL you spin and twist and dance. It would be funny if it was not so serious a subject.
Please. I have shown over and over, time and time again how the verses are all tied together in the context of trials. You even admit this. I have quoted the various scholars who agree the context of the wisdom given is specific to trials and there have been none that agree with your position. I can somewhat see your point in only reading that one translation of Calvin, which is the problem for you in not reading sources outside Mormonism. But in reading different translations of Calvin and studying the Greek, it is very obvious Calvin states the idea behind verse 5 was probably from the thoughts taught in Matt 7:7 and Luke 11:9, and their surrounding context.
And because of that, Matt 7:7 and Luke 11:9 are the general case verses to quote when requesting wisdom. James 1:5 is to the open minded reader who isn't stuck reading sources from one organization, obviously referring to trials. So you really have no excuse as I have repeatedly made my case from the Greek and you have not even tried to make your case from the Greek. BTW, this is a new paragraph but it is directly related, directly tied to the previous paragraph and the context therein.
In the morning I am starting on a new project, one that may turn into a large career change if things go well. As such I'm afraid I won't have time to watch you dance any more. So I will not be posting to this thread again and might not even see your reply to this. I'm sure you'd just be repeating yourself anyway.
Well, if that's what you want I hope you get the project. Lord willing, I have all the time in the world to continue pointing out how you refuse to answer the tough questions. I also hope you come to understand the concept of context.
I hope that in the course of your life you come to the point where you humble yourself enough to listen to the Spirit instead of trust in the wisdom of men (both alone and in groups of any size). If so, after this life we may yet gather together and have a good laugh about this.
Fortunately for my eternal well being, I try to follow the Holy Spirit as best I can and not the false guide I believe you follow. If I were to follow your guide perhaps we would meet again, but not where you might think, and there would be no laughing there. I most definitely prefer you come to follow the one true God, to follow the lead of the Holy Spirit and not some false guide.
I'll post some questions you never answered when we first started writing back and forth last year:
Please don't let yourself be trapped into reading material from any one organization. In doing so you're setting yourself up to fall for anything.
I realize you cannot see the trap you have fallen into. That is, trusting one organization to control your eternal well being. I'm praying a very specific prayer that, Lord willing, you will see the path to the one true God when it all hits the fan.
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