Posted on 11/14/2002 11:56:40 AM PST by xzins
If I understand correctly, the premil interpretation of the word "zao" (to live) in Rev. 20:4 and 5 understands this to refer to bodily resurrection as in "they came to life again". These are the phrases "they lived and reigned with Christ" in verse 4 and in verse 5 "The rest of the dead did not live"
John knew very well the two greek words for resurrection. In using the word "zao" I think he intended to emphasize not the act of resurrection but the quality of life as in "everyone that beholdeth the Son, and believeth on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.{John 6:40
The post I responded to seem to clearly say that satan deceives people who are physically alive and a person decieved by satan is spiritually dead. In Rev. 20:8 the deceived, the spiritually dead, are very much alive and are gathered for war. The dead in Rev. 20:12 can't be physically dead for the text points out that the dead are standing and the dead are judged. There is no mention of a bodily resurrection.
If I understand Scripture one can be literally "spiritual dead" just as well as someone can be literally "physically dead". It seems to me that "deceived nations" and the "dead" in Rev. 20 refer to the same kind of reality. If I understand correctly the premil interpretation of the "dead" of verse five are physically dead and the "dead" of verse 12-13 are spiritually dead.
My take on verses 4 and 5 against the backgroud of verse 3:In verse 3 all the nations (gentiles) as deceived by satan are spiritually dead. In verse 4 "some of the dead" are made alive in Christ. In verse 5 the "rest of the dead" have no connection to Christ.
Why would John say something like this? Read John 3:16-21.
If verse 4 and 5 refer to bodily resurrection why would John not clearly say so with either one of the two greek words for resurrection?
And if the nations are spiritually dead in verse 3 how do you jump in verses 4,5 to physically dead in need of bodily resurrection?
My premise is quite simple: physically alive people deceived by satan are spiritually dead. I don't know whether any of this helps, but I do think that both amil and premil need to do more work with this text.
Not first of all. I am more interested in focusing on the catagories of spiritual and physical death to see how that might affect the interpretation of some other aspects of Rev. 20.
It seems that the premil position jumps back and forth in Rev. 20 between spiritual and physical death. In the basis of the meaning of the words, the grammer and the concepts involved I don't understand how this happens.
I'll ask again - how do you get from spiritually deceived (dead) in verse 3 to physically dead in need of bodily resurrection in verses 4 and 5? And why do premils interpret the greek word for "life" in verse 4 and 5 as though it means bodily resurrection when there are two clear and specific greek words that clearly convey that meaning?
I think we ought to pay attention to what the words mean and see if the meaning is found elsewhere in scripture. I don't want to get sidetracked here about the meaning of the "1000 years" except to say if it does refer to a literal 1000 year reign on earth this is the only reference to a literal reign on earth being exactly 1000 years. There are many references in scripture to spiritual death going all the way back to the garden of eden. " In the day you eat of the tree you shall surely die".
It seems to me that a concept so crucial to biblical teaching ought to be at the very least considered in relationship to Rev. 20.
I would appreciate your attempt to answer the questions I have asked to help me to better understand your position.
Satan is bound now! We are in the time of tribulation, now! Satan is imprisoned on earth. He is bound by the limitations God has set for him. Satan has lost, Christ has won. He is risen, hallelujah!
I think we have a problem of semantics here. Satan has always been bound by the limitations that God set on him. Recall the interactions with Job. I further posit that Satan is still "the prince" or "the ruler" of this world as referred to in Scripture. As xzins has pointed out, Satan continues to accuse the brethren and tries to lead us into sin by tempting our old sin nature. As Paul wrote in Romans, we are dead to sin and don't have to yield to this. I suggest that the binding of Satan described in Revelation will be more complete. That said, we completely agree that "Satan has lost, Christ has won. He is risen, hallelujah!"
You are correct..there is no resurrection of the unsaved dead BEFORE this judgement
Is that ONE of your points?
When are the unsaved resurrected ?
He was being accused of casting out demons by the power of Beelzebub (the Devil), which led to his comment, now mostly attributed to Abe Lincoln, that "A house divided against itself cannot stand."
Then Jesus continued (Luke's version, RSV): "...If it is by the finger of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are in peace; but when one stronger than he assails him and overcomes him, he takes away his armor, in which he trusted, and divides his spoil."
Or as Matthew put it: "...How can one enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house."
Jesus has been there, done that. The turning point was in his temptation in the wilderness, about which so little is recorded in scripture. We will never know in this life what kind of epic struggle has been fought -- and won -- to destroy the power of the Evil One and to ransom us to freedom. Jesus came into the world to destroy the works of the Devil. And he succeeded. The world and all its trappings may go to hell. But we don't have to go with it any more. Rejoice!
Then why did Paul write to the Ephesians (Eph 2:1-3)
And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
Also recall that Peter wrote in 1 Pet 5:8
Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.
My point is that I believe the Scriptures speak of Satan being more tightly bound at some times than at others. According to the book of Revelation, he's gonna be much more tightly bound in the future than he is now. The Scriptures also teach that Christ's rule over the earth will be different after His return. Has every knee bent? Has every tongue confessed? (Phil 2:11) I certainly expect to see some different behavior when all eyes see the King is here! Maranatha, Lord come!
Do not misinterpret my point. God has always been sovereign over His creation. He has simply chosen to display that sovereignty differently to men at different times. Who are you or I to argue with His will? I certainly won't. Don't forget that from God's perspective Christ is the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. God exists outside of space and time (He created them and is not bound by them). He has known and declared the end from the beginning. God's desired result is not contingent upon any act of the will of man.
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