A life not worth living?

At what point should one stop believing what the Bible says and why. With all due respect, it sounds to me like a convenient rationalization.

You asked whether the Bible is the infallible Word of God, after I pointed out that modern translations may use different shades of meaning from the original words (the Old Testament was written in ancient Hebrew, the New Testament in ancient Greek; Christ's original teachings may have been spoken in Aramaic to his disciples).

Even many scholars study the Bible for their entire lives and do not claim to understand it fully, nor do I make that claim. Where scripture may appear to our minds to contradict itself, that is because we are imperfect at understanding the vaster, infinitely greater Mind of God.

I believe the process that formed the Bible is, like all things on earth, subject to God's complete and perfect intention for mankind; but I do not think the average person's ability to understand the intentions of God through His Word is infallible. That's where faith comes in. It is not "rationalization", as you claim. Rather, where some issues in present life demand answers and we may find ourselves with conflicting opinions from other Christians about the meaning of the Word, it is a "suspension of belief or disbelief" until more of our human limitations are broken down, more of His illumination shines through, and we have accomplished more of the "death to self" that He wants of us.

It is His intentions that must guide our behavior and beliefs, not our own, nor overconfidence in our own intellect "Trust the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding." (Proverbs 3:5). What we do not understand, we lift up to God, "Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief!" (Mark 9:24)

Faced with a dilemma, we lift it up in faith, prayer and meditation on the Word, and prayerful requests for guidance from the Holy Spirit. This is especially true when we deal with problems in the world, such as whether, as a citizen, we vote for a candidate who says they are pro-choice or pro-life, or one who is for or against the death penalty.

You asked whether the Bible is the infallible Word of God

I don't mean to be difficult or disrespectful, but it sounds like you are hedging.

There are some here who claim to know the mind and will of God with great exactitude and are willing to judge others severely based on that knowledge, yet the meaning and accuracy of the source is very open to dispute.

As to the guidance of the Holy Spirit, a problem there is that different people hear the Holy Spirit telling them many different and contradictory different things.

it sounds like you are hedging.

I am most definitely not hedging. I have been trying to give you a full explanation. The doubts, fears and attempts to debunk are in your mind, not mine. I am content to be a student of the Word, and not arrogate to myself a conceit that I have mastered it.

To me, learning the Word in awe of a God vastly more intelligent than ourselves is a lifelong activity -- in English, the Bible is approximately 775,000 words inspired by the Mind of the Divine.

Most importantly, it is impossible for the Created to completely understand the Creator. If it were possible for mankind to completely understand God, He would not be God because He would not be any smarter than the average Bible reader. That just doesn't make sense.

That's not me; and I would be as skeptical as you of persons who make claims to know the mind of God. But there is an established canon among the branches of the Body of Christ going back from 2,000 to 5,000 years. There are Commandments and other major principles clearly articulated. Those form the backbone of "moral absolutes."

As to the guidance of the Holy Spirit, a problem there is that different people hear the Holy Spirit telling them many different and contradictory different things.

God is not looking at whether our decisions are right in man's terms or society's terms, but in His terms. He alone can read your mind, your heart and your intentions in relation to what you have learned and what you choose to do based on your understanding of His Will. Our lives are to please Him, not to meet some objective standard among our fellow man. If there were no uncertainty, there would be no growth and no free will. Your growth cannot be tested if you only had to make easy decisions -- it is when there is a giant moral dilemma that your growth of spirit is really tested.

There are people in jail who will be more favored by Him on Judgment Day than many of society's leaders and prominent decision-makers, as the Bible makes clear in parable after parable.

Throughout these conversations, you have tried to make everything black-and-white, and all the math equal out at the end of the column like an accountant -- but life is eternal, infinite, gloriously varied and very messy, on our level. Either you are rather young; you are naive; you have not studied the Bible or even read it -- or you are an accountant or engineer. LOL!

I think Socrates beat them to the punch, “the unexamined life is not worth living for a rational man.”

Good choice of quotations..But i’d look deeper..For Socrates, i’d reply that a Rational Man always examines his life, and in doing so he can always find meaning in his life. Socrates certainly left a lasting mark on civilization by his questioning which led to Plato’s inquiries including his views on coming into the Light. which has very deep meaning on several planes..

For Chesterton, being such an uncommonably commonsensical fellow, i’d say let the patient follow the route of the Choices he confronted..For example- who made the choice that he be born to begin with?..Not his parents- they were just the instruments brought together..But Who gave him Life, and then allowed him free will to live his life as he wished?..

To nitpick over wording of assisted suicide Laws completely ignores these very questions of Who, what and Why ?..A rational person, even in terminal pain- which can usually be dulled or blunted ny modern medicine-can and should be able to conclude that they were born for a reason, that they did their part by living, and that every person on earth should be able to die naturally and with dignity so as to be able to return to the Author of all Life...At the end you have 2 choices: to live, for that is the most natural thing to do, or to die and go into the unknown...By choosing life, he would still have more choices he could follow in order to die a peaceful natural death, unafraid of facing the void. and hopefully confident of finding a just reward for his life on earth..

Excerpts from paragraphs 2276–2279 on Euthanasia and paragraphs 2280–2283 on Suicide (from The Catechism of the Catholic Church):

#2277 ...Thus an act or omission which, of itself or by intention, causes death in order to eliminate suffering constitutes a murder gravely contrary to the dignity of the human person and to the respect due to the living God, his Creator....

#2278 Discontinuing medical procedures that are burdensome, dangerous, extraordinary, or disproportionate to the expected outcome can be legitimate; it is the refusal of "over–zealous" treatment....

#2279 Even if death is thought imminent, the ordinary care owed to a sick person cannot be legitimately interrupted. The use of painkillers to alleviate the sufferings of the dying, even at the risk of shortening their days, can be morally in conformity with human dignity if death is not willed as either an end or a means, but only foreseen and tolerated as inevitable. Palliative care is a special form of disinterested charity. As such it should be encouraged.

#2280....It is God who remains the sovereign Master of life. We are obliged to accept life gratefully and preserve it for his honor and the salvation of our souls. We are stewards, not owners, of the life God has entrusted to us. It is not ours to dispose of.

#2281 Suicide contradicts the natural inclination of the human being to preserve and perpetuate his life. It is gravely contrary to the just love of self. It likewise offends love of neighbor because it unjustly breaks the ties of solidarity with family, nation, and other human societies to which we continue to have obligations. Suicide is contrary to love for the living God.

Most importantly, it is impossible for the Created to completely understand the Creator.

Here we agree.

However, I also inclined to believe that the Bible itself also probably does not have a great deal to contribute to our understanding of God. What it does give us, in my opinion, is a lot of knowledge about man's conception of God through the ages which is something vastly different.

I have not tried to make things out as black and white and believe that those who do have built there houses on quicksand. I agree with you heartily that "life is gloriously varied and very messy".

Finally, I'm not young by a long shot. I don't think I am naive (but that is open to debate!) I have studied the Bible as well as other great scriptures. Also, I am neither an accountant nor an engineer. In fact, if there is one of profession whose services I require above all others, it is the accountant!

I have studied the Bible as well as other great scriptures. Also, I am neither an accountant nor an engineer. In fact, if there is one of profession whose services I require above all others, it is the accountant!

It does no good to study the Bible if you remain unsurrendered to its message, lumping the Bible into a category of equally great scriptures. If you were a believer, not a skeptic, there would be no question which message was truly valid; nor would you waste my time and yours on skeptical debate about infallibility.

The "engineer" part was a joke. As for the accountant part, click here.

It does no good to study the Bible if you remain unsurrendered to its message, lumping the Bible into a category of equally great scriptures.

Have you read any of the other great scriptures or did you just take your pastor's word that they are "false teachings"? Could you, in fact, read them with the openness with which you profess to read the Bible? I seriously doubt it. In my experience, fundamentalism teaches one not to consider other beliefs under penalty of sin...a convenient provision when it comes to keeping the flock from straying!

If you were a believer, not a skeptic, there would be no question which message was truly valid...

Well, you are essentially saying that if I believed it then I would believe it. Obviously true!!!

I do wholeheartedly support your right to believe as you do and I do not question your sincerity. I do have a problem when thoughtful people here are branded as evil interlopers and liberals just because they don't agree as you do about these deeply personal matters.

Personally, my own conception of God leans toward that imagined by Jefferson when he said, "Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear." -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787.

Apparently you took my comment about accountants to mean that I am wealthy. Not so (regrettably), however that is not to say I do not find it challenging to fill out my tax return!

I seriously doubt...Your words... but was that what you meant?

It seems my little joke about your being an engineer or accountant has been taken very literally by you, and is leading off in a direction of no usefulness whatsoever.

Again, you have rolled out terms such as "fundamentalism", "branded", etc. and employed the passive tense evasively, as if politely to reveal your suspicions about my posts and beliefs, which are anything but what you suspect -- and again, imagining that while you are so grand as to have read other scriptures with an open mind, I could not have done so. Possibly you believe I could not have done so and also have made an informed decision to choose Christ (an end product of the process you attributed to Jefferson), because apparently you have not done so after your erudite readings.

But it is true -- I have read many other scriptures with an open mind as a seeker, I am an Ivy graduate-degreed reader of same, and yet I eventually chose Christ -- most assuredly not due to the exhortations of any pastor, but due to the words of Christ and the impact of realizing their scope and majesty.

In fact, most of the pastors I have ever encountered were intellectual disappointments; and many were spiritual disappointments as well. You have only to look at the churches to see that this is so. But that has nothing to do with the messages taught by Christ and reinforced by the Holy Spirit. Part of leaving behind the "thinking as a child" is to understand the human limitations of the church, and taking up the cross of individual responsibility.

I wish you well, but this discussion is now over.

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.