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Second Amendment Rights and Black Sheep
dansargis.org ^ | October 17, 2007 | Dan Sargis

Posted on 10/17/2007 11:48:49 AM PDT by Dr.Syn

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To: robertpaulsen
F you were your right was protected by the second amendment. If you're not, then your right isn't protected by the second amendment

Are you saying that the 2A only applies to state militias?

61 posted on 10/18/2007 8:14:48 AM PDT by groanup
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To: robertpaulsen

Well, a “right” doesn’t make much sense if it depends on whether the government (fed or state) has selected a person to exercise that right - does it?

In _Miller_, there was absolutely no discussion about whether Mr. Miller was part of a militia of any kind; to the contrary, his weapons possession charge plainly stemmed from criminal activity. If the Supreme Court, and any court along the path of that case, had ANY inkling that the 2ndA had the limitation you refer to, that would have been the first thing used to throw out his appeal. The question addressed at length was not whether Mr. Miller was one of “the people”, but whether the weapon in question had any militia suitability.

In other Supreme Court cases oft recounted (names escape me at this millisecond, you know them), there are plenty of direct and indirect references to the 2ndA applying to a whole lotta people that you put outside the “white male landowner” and “state militia member” limitation.


62 posted on 10/18/2007 8:29:59 AM PDT by ctdonath2 (The color blue tastes like the square root of 0?)
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To: groanup

Yes, that’s the premise which he commits an enormous amount of time, effort and verbiage to promoting.


63 posted on 10/18/2007 8:30:47 AM PDT by ctdonath2 (The color blue tastes like the square root of 0?)
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To: ctdonath2; robertpaulsen
Yes, that’s the premise which he commits an enormous amount of time, effort and verbiage to promoting.

Well he could save a lot of effort if he would just ask someone. LOL.

64 posted on 10/18/2007 8:34:08 AM PDT by groanup
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To: Joe Brower

...to debate the self-proclaimed FRexpert on all things RKBA...well...that way lies madness Joe.

walk away Joe...just walk away.

;0)


65 posted on 10/18/2007 8:49:55 AM PDT by woollyone (tazers are the 21st century version of the rusty bed frame, car battery, transformer & clamps)
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To: robertpaulsen
True. That is a militia. But the second amendment refers to a "well regulated state Militia" and the U.S. Constitution says that officers are to be appointed by the state.

I see your still glossing over the unorganized militia again in the composition descriptions.

66 posted on 10/18/2007 9:05:49 AM PDT by beltfed308 (Rudy: When you absolutely,positively need a liberal for President.)
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To: robertpaulsen

I asked your opinion, not the current published sophistry! (You could have just said “No..” ;)


67 posted on 10/18/2007 9:08:33 AM PDT by Freedom4US
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To: Joe Brower; robertpaulsen

Voting for males came from the tradition of military service granting the vote for non-land owners. We even see the remnants of that today whereby young Mexican men of good character serve in the Armed Forces of the US of A and then become US citizens.


68 posted on 10/18/2007 9:24:21 AM PDT by Pharmboy (Democrats lie because they have to)
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To: robertpaulsen

The commas. Don’t forget the commas!


Ok. Here ya go: Commas and the Second Amendment

:o)

69 posted on 10/18/2007 10:06:25 AM PDT by EdReform (The right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed *NRA*JPFO*SAF*GOA*SAS*RWVA)
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To: EdReform
I'll raise ya in regard to the militia 'argument that gets used very selectively.

The classes of the militia are --

(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and

(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia."

70 posted on 10/18/2007 10:15:26 AM PDT by beltfed308 (Rudy: When you absolutely,positively need a liberal for President.)
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To: Dr.Syn
"It does not read "state Militia"."

Correct. But that's what it's referring to.

"and my neighbors and I are quite capable of being "well regulated"

Nice try.

71 posted on 10/18/2007 10:25:45 AM PDT by robertpaulsen
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To: groanup
"Are you saying that the 2A only applies to state militias?"

The second amendment protects those individuals and those arms that are associated with a state militia from federal infringement.

The protection of individuals and arms that are not associated with a state militia is provided by the constitutions of each state.

72 posted on 10/18/2007 10:32:04 AM PDT by robertpaulsen
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To: beltfed308; robertpaulsen

The Constitution _does_ get to define what constitutes a “well-regulated militia”. Those who wrote the 2ndA soon thereafter wrote the Militia Act of 1792, so presumably it reflects what they had in mind. Of late, that was replaced with a new definition that defines able-bodied males 18-45 as part thereof, and implemented it via the Selective Service System to register members thereof and the DCM/CMP to train & equip them at their time & expense. Legalise often meaning something other than common vernacular, the term “unorganized militia” is nonetheless legally a part of the militia, and is demonstrably “regulated” to whatever degree Congress deems “well”.

RP, neither the 2ndA, Constitution, nor supporting law require that the “militia” in question be _owned_ by a state; the state may enact officers and provide some support & direction, but from the Constitution’s point of view there is only one “militia” addressed, not diverse “state militias” which you keep insisting decide who gets to exercise a “right”.


73 posted on 10/18/2007 10:40:47 AM PDT by ctdonath2 (The color blue tastes like the square root of 0?)
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To: ctdonath2
The Constitution _does_ get to define

Make that "The Congress _does_ get to define".

74 posted on 10/18/2007 10:41:33 AM PDT by ctdonath2 (The color blue tastes like the square root of 0?)
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To: robertpaulsen

So the 2A protects mortar and howitzer weapons but not .22’s.


75 posted on 10/18/2007 10:41:49 AM PDT by groanup
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To: robertpaulsen

No, it protects “the people”. The “militia” is a subset thereof. You are unable to show any Constitutional verbiage showing “the people” is “the militia”.


76 posted on 10/18/2007 10:42:51 AM PDT by ctdonath2 (The color blue tastes like the square root of 0?)
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To: robertpaulsen
Copperud:] "(4) The right is assumed to exist and to be unconditional, as previously stated. It is invoked here specifically for the sake of the militia."

An expert on English grammar and usage seems to disagree with you.

77 posted on 10/18/2007 10:46:20 AM PDT by groanup
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To: ctdonath2
"Well, a “right” doesn’t make much sense if it depends on whether the government (fed or state) has selected a person to exercise that right - does it?"

You are correct. I meant to say the protection of that right.

"In _Miller_, there was absolutely no discussion about whether Mr. Miller was part of a militia of any kind"

Correct. The case wasn't about Mr. Miller. The case was really about the weapon itself.

"his weapons possession charge plainly stemmed from criminal activity."

His weapons charge was the criminal activity -- he was not charged with the interstate transportation of a sawed-off shotgun. He was charged with the interstate tranportation of a sawed-off shotgun without a tax stamp.

He claimed that a tax stamp on any weapon was an infringement and therefore unconstitutional.

78 posted on 10/18/2007 10:46:30 AM PDT by robertpaulsen
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To: beltfed308
Even during the Revolutionary War, freed slaves fought in the Militia. Being freed was also an incentive given to slaves to get them to fight in the Militia as well.

The "only white land owners had Rights" crap is just another leftist canard that ignores pesky little things like FACTS.

79 posted on 10/18/2007 10:51:02 AM PDT by Dead Corpse (What would a free man do?)
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To: beltfed308
"I see your still glossing over the unorganized militia again in the composition descriptions."

I don't understand "glossing over". The unorganized militia exists. I have no problem with the unorganized militia. I'm simply saying the second amendment doesn't apply to them, that's all.

80 posted on 10/18/2007 10:51:37 AM PDT by robertpaulsen
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