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Maybe! (Santorum is about to become Ex-Senator Santorum)
Politics PA ^ | Uncertain | Dr. G. Terry Madonna , Dr. Michael Young

Posted on 03/29/2005 6:40:35 AM PST by Conservative Goddess

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To: Conservative Goddess
The Senate race is decidedly different. Santorum is but one of a hundred. We can afford to lose him, and he must be held to account for his betrayal of his professed principles. For more than a decade, he shamelessly promoted himself as staunchly pro-life, but when he had a chance to indirectly influence the composition of the SCOTUS, he allowed Arlen to ascend. That is unexcusable.

Here's the political calculation you don't seem to remember or understand. There was no guarantee that the GOP would pick up or retain its numbers in the Senate. So from President Bush on down it was thought best to support every GOP incumbent.

With Arlen voting with the GOP caucus, we have control of the apparatus. With a Senator Hoeffel and a few other losses, we have a tied or diminished Senate.

You all are operating under the assumption that Toomey would win in the general election. That's not a given in any way, especially with Rendell and the Philly machine.

You also operate under the assumption that it doesn't matter what party controls the Senate. You can disagree with 20/20 hindsight that Specter's seat was a "must hold" for the GOP, but in the political reality of the campaign season, to forfeit a seat you control is foolish.

Bush and Santorum calculated that the pro-life cause would be furthered with GOP control of the Senate, including a Specter who was in some way indebted to them, than they would be by impaling themselves in order to please the base.

You are short sighted.

SD

201 posted on 03/30/2005 8:13:49 AM PST by SoothingDave
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To: FlipWilson

LOL. Reasonable people can disagree. I'm tired of the party telling me that Ricky is the uber conservative...when clearly, he is not. They even dispatched Ken Mehlman to proclaim: "He's a man of convictions." I nearly fell out of my chair laughing when I read it. I was duped for a very long time by his words....I'm only pointing out the fact that Ricky's words and deeds are incongruent. If you chose to vote for him simply because he's the lesser of the evils, great, so be it.

My point is simply this: If we continue to tolerate conservatism when convenient, then we'll get more of it. I've voted pragmatically for years, waiting, patiently for them to start acting like conservatives who are in the majority, instead, we've seen explosive growth in government. As a limited government, Libertarian/conservative, I can no longer hold my nose and vote for the lesser of the evils.


202 posted on 03/30/2005 8:18:36 AM PST by Conservative Goddess (Veritas vos Liberabit, in Vino, Veritas....QED, Vino vos Liberabit)
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To: Conservative Goddess
My point is simply this: If we continue to tolerate conservatism when convenient, then we'll get more of it. I've voted pragmatically for years, waiting, patiently for them to start acting like conservatives who are in the majority, instead, we've seen explosive growth in government. As a limited government, Libertarian/conservative, I can no longer hold my nose and vote for the lesser of the evils.

If you want to be effective, then oppose the heretic in the primary. That is the proper place for that. Going third party or sitting on your hands is not a viable option.

If you are dissatisfied with the GOP (and who isn't sometimes?), then work to change it. Don't gripe and moan and place unrealistic yokes on its members. If you think Santorum has betrayed you cause he supported his president and senior senator, then find someone in the primary who is better.

Helping to elect a democrat is not the answer.

SD

203 posted on 03/30/2005 8:23:34 AM PST by SoothingDave
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To: SoothingDave

"You all are operating under the assumption that Toomey would win in the general election."

I operate under no such assumption.

EVERY prognostication that I read or heard in the run-up to the primary indicated that we were likely to pick up seats in the general. This was a PERFECT time to cull a rino, even if you assume, arguendo, that we would have lost the seat to Hoeffel (unlikely in my view).

That Rick allowed the party to dictate his endorsement of Arlen over idealogical soulmate Toomey, is unforgiveable. Demonstrates a comlete lack of, well, I'll be kind and say, SPINE!


204 posted on 03/30/2005 8:26:20 AM PST by Conservative Goddess (Veritas vos Liberabit, in Vino, Veritas....QED, Vino vos Liberabit)
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To: Conservative Goddess
EVERY prognostication that I read or heard in the run-up to the primary indicated that we were likely to pick up seats in the general.

And John Kerry was winning in the early exit polls, too. You don't count your chickens...

This was a PERFECT time to cull a rino, even if you assume, arguendo, that we would have lost the seat to Hoeffel (unlikely in my view).

There is never a good time to forfeit control of a Senate seat. You are unreasonable. The time to "cull a rino" is in the primary, and we darn near did it. I voted for Toomey. But I understand why Bush and Santorum did not support him.

That Rick allowed the party to dictate his endorsement of Arlen over idealogical soulmate Toomey, is unforgiveable.

You would rather there be no purebred conservative senators rather than accepting that there are some political realities that must be faced. One of them is supporting the reelection of fellow members of your own party.

Just don't complain when Casey beats Santorum and Specter dies and Rendell appoints a second democrat senator for us.

205 posted on 03/30/2005 8:39:26 AM PST by SoothingDave
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To: SoothingDave

We would not have forfeited control of the Senate and I believe that Toomey would have won the statewide election. We would have been infinately better off if Santorum had bothered to stand on his professed principles. If Arlen behaves, moves all nominees out of committee, then I'll eat crow. But I'll bet you dollars to donuts that he'll find an obscure provision in Scottish law that will give him a reason to BORK a nominee or two or three. Time will tell, but it is much to early to give Ricky a pass for his complicity in allowing Arlen to ascend.


206 posted on 03/30/2005 8:48:48 AM PST by Conservative Goddess (Veritas vos Liberabit, in Vino, Veritas....QED, Vino vos Liberabit)
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To: Conservative Goddess
Until you are suffering with the likes of Boxer and Feinstein, Clinton and Shumer, or Kennedy and Kerry filling both your Senate seats, don't complain so much about having Santorum and Specter. Especially in a fairly liberal state like PA. At least you get SOME representation.

You should be thankful you had a choice between a Santorum and a Toomey in your primary. Out here in CA, we can't get the state Pubbie party to endorse and support anyone with a pulse, even against a loser like Boxer.

I mean, if you aren't even going to try to win the election, at least run a candidate that will be a strong contrast to Boxer. Make her defend her looney record in public, not just throw up another cypher like Fong or Jones or whoever it was that last ran. He made such an impression that I can't remember his name.
207 posted on 03/30/2005 8:51:39 AM PST by LexBaird ("Democracy can withstand anything but democrats" --Jubal Harshaw (RA Heinlein))
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To: Conservative Goddess
We would not have forfeited control of the Senate and I believe that Toomey would have won the statewide election.

There's control, and then there's control. Every extra seat gives us more leeway.

And if you think Toomey would have won statewide, you are seriously optimistic. He might have had a chance, but I don't trust much of anything that happens in Philly. Specter, for what little else he is worth, has the support of the Philly labor machine. That ain't nothing.

Time will tell, but it is much to early to give Ricky a pass for his complicity in allowing Arlen to ascend.

The complement to your assuming Toomey would win is more bizarre notion that Santorum "allowed" Spectre to win. I am not convinced that Spectre would not have won regardless of Santorum's actions. Santorum is scertainly not the gatekeeper over Arlen's career.

SD

208 posted on 03/30/2005 9:01:13 AM PST by SoothingDave
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To: LexBaird

I don't deny that Santorum is better than the leftists....but I just can't abide the duplicity any longer. When he turned on his pro-life base, that was the last straw for me. I don't know if you've read the entire thread, so please forgive me if this is mindless repetition, but you should probably know that prior to teh release of the Arlen ads, Rick even called some of the people who'd worked tirelessly for him precisely because of his pro-life stance. He did not call me personally, but he called one of the Committee women in my county. He clearly knew and understood that what he was about to do would wound his base severely. That we are angered to the point of refusing to support him should come as no surprise. That we are holding him accountable should likewise come as no surprise. We worked for him because we thought he he shared our principled pro-life views, and that those principles would NEVER be compromised.

I guess the duplicity would be easier to abide if Rick hadn't played the part of "St. Rick" for so long. The fall from grace was swift, and the landing will be hard.


209 posted on 03/30/2005 9:11:35 AM PST by Conservative Goddess (Veritas vos Liberabit, in Vino, Veritas....QED, Vino vos Liberabit)
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To: Conservative Goddess
Right now, we are one reliable vote short in the Senate to invoke the "nuclear option" to allow Federal judge nominees an up-down vote. Until Chafee, Snowe, McCain, et al are replaced with real republicans, we can't afford to lose Santorum. I'm sorry if that offends your sense of betrayal, but that's the hard facts.

If you want to see REAL damage to the pro life side, imagine this: three SCUSA absences filled with Souter clones. Which is exactly what you'll get out of the Senate if the Dems filibuster tactic isn't stopped. Electing another Dem Senator would insure that reality.

210 posted on 03/30/2005 10:44:26 AM PST by LexBaird ("Democracy can withstand anything but democrats" --Jubal Harshaw (RA Heinlein))
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To: Badray
What is the *truth*, B?
211 posted on 03/30/2005 3:35:46 PM PST by 7.62 x 51mm (• Veni • Vidi • Vino • Visa • "I came, I saw, I drank wine, I shopped")
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To: Conservative Goddess
That Rick allowed the party to dictate his endorsement of Arlen over idealogical soulmate Toomey, is unforgiveable. Demonstrates a comlete lack of, well, I'll be kind and say, SPINE!

CG, I'm a Toomey fan too and hope to see him as Guv one day. I also agree that Santorum screwed up big time by backing "Sn"Arlen. That being said, I doubt that Pat would want us to hand over a U.S. Senate seat (and maybe even control of the chamber) to the Dems.
212 posted on 03/30/2005 6:45:23 PM PST by hispanichoosier
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To: hispanichoosier

That may be true, but I owe allegiance to my own conscience and I'll not betray that and I'll not reward Santorum with re-election. The English, it is said, get even, very even. Kind of a variation on "He who laughs last".....only in this case, it's "She who laughs last, laughs best."


213 posted on 03/30/2005 8:44:20 PM PST by Conservative Goddess (Veritas vos Liberabit, in Vino, Veritas....QED, Vino vos Liberabit)
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morning read


214 posted on 03/31/2005 1:35:08 AM PST by Mo1
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To: fuquadukie

Many single issue types (or all political flavors) have convinced themselves that 'sleeping better at night' is preferable to making positive change. It remains unclear how a series of good restful nights moves the status quo in a direction that they want.

Then again, if I were cynical I would just suggest they prefer to talk a mean game rather than actually doing something positive. If you never make change, you can never take a political hit.

But, they can sleep soundly.


215 posted on 03/31/2005 1:49:32 AM PST by HitmanLV
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To: Conservative Goddess

PIFFLE


216 posted on 04/04/2005 5:11:05 AM PDT by MEG33 (GOD BLESS OUR ARMED FORCES)
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To: PhiKapMom

Amen..I am sick of if I can't get everything I want ..I am going to allow a true liberal leftist to take over..That'll show em!


217 posted on 04/04/2005 5:14:19 AM PDT by MEG33 (GOD BLESS OUR ARMED FORCES)
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To: Conservative Goddess

You sleep well and allow the left to take over..


218 posted on 04/04/2005 5:15:36 AM PDT by MEG33 (GOD BLESS OUR ARMED FORCES)
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