The "World" of John 3:16 Does Not Mean "All Men Without Exception

http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/calvinism/full.asp?ID=277 ^ | 6/15/04 | David J. Engelsma

[P-Marlowe]

I'm reading Leviticus.

Missler seems to have skipped over that one. :-)

But if you are looking for detailed expositional sermons on Leviticus, there's always Jon Courson

[DoorGunner]

[Apologies, for the long gap before this response to your post. The old computer finally quit. Now using an older slower, flakier machine. Don't know how long it will last.]

[You had written: (#699)]

You DO know what a conditional statement is, don't you? It's usually presented in the form if "If...Then". As such, a conditional statement sets forth a truism. It does not address how one attains or comes to be in the position of the first part of the statement. It only states that one in that condition, IF they do or don't do a specific action, will become or come to be in the second part of the statement.

[To which I had replied:]

Although I have some difficulties with your definition, let's use it, for now.

[To which you responded:]

The maybe you should tell us what you consider a conditional statement to be. I stand by my definition.

[To which I now reply:]

My basic difficulty with your definition is that you define "a conditional statement" as " a truism." Now, Merriam-Webster Online defines the word "TRUISM" thus:

Main Entry: tru·ism
Pronunciation: 'trü-"i-z&m
Function: noun
: an undoubted or self-evident truth; especially : one too obvious for mention

[Then:]

Actually, almost every one of the starts with "IF", showing it to be a conditional statement. it doesn't say that the RIGHTEOUS MAN WILL do these things, it only states that IF he does or doesn't do those things, there will be a sure result.

I concur with your statement, above.

We are considering these few verses, from the Hebrew Bible: (Copied from an earlier post.)

Ezekiel 18:24
"But if a RIGHTEOUS man turns from his RIGHTEOUSness and commits sin
and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he
live? None of the RIGHTEOUS things he has done will be remembered.
Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins
he has committed, he will die.

Ezekiel 18:26
If a RIGHTEOUS man turns from his RIGHTEOUSness and commits sin, he
will die for it; because of the sin he has committed he will die.


Ezekiel 33:12
"Therefore, son of man, say to your countrymen, 'The RIGHTEOUSness
of the RIGHTEOUS man will not save him when he disobeys, and the
wickedness of the wicked man will not cause him to fall when he turns
from it. The RIGHTEOUS man, if he sins, will not be allowed to live
because of his former RIGHTEOUSness.'

Ezekiel 33:13
If I tell the RIGHTEOUS man that he will surely live, but then he trusts in
his RIGHTEOUSness and does evil, none of the RIGHTEOUS things he has
done will be remembered; he will die for the evil he has done.

Ezekiel 33:18
If a RIGHTEOUS man turns from his RIGHTEOUSness and does evil, he will
die for it.

In this small selection of the verses I had posted earlier, every one STARTS out, with a "righteous man." You are correct, in that (at least) these particular verses do not clearly state HOW such persons BECAME righteous. They ALL clearly state, however, that if the RIGHTEOUS man does certain things, "he will die."

because of the sins he has committed, he will die.

because of the sin he has committed he will die.

if he sins, will not be allowed to live because of his former RIGHTEOUSness.'

does evil, none of the RIGHTEOUS things he has done will be remembered; he will die for the evil he has done.

does evil, he will die for it.

To slightly paraphrase, If a righteous man commits sin, he will die, because of the sin he has committed.

In Ezekiel 33:13, it says an interesting thing:

Ezekiel 33:13
If I tell the RIGHTEOUS man that he will surely live, but then he trusts in
his RIGHTEOUSness and does evil, none of the RIGHTEOUS things he has
done will be remembered; he will die for the evil he has done.

The RIGHTEOUS man who "does evil" BECAUSE he "trusts in his RIGHTEOUSNESS" (to be a permanent state?) "will die for the evil he has done."

---

I propose that we look at these "conditional statements" in the context of standard logic:

If "A," then "B"

Thus:

If a righteous man does evil, he will die

|-----------"A"----------------------------| |--"B"------|

The next step (in logic) is to prove that A is true, AND that the consequence of A actually IS B. Personally, if have no need to do this, because I accept it as an authoritative statement from the Creator of the universe.

If one takes the position that a "RIGHTEOUS man" cannot, ever, commit a sin, or "do evil," the "A" part of the major premise above would be false, on its face.

And yet...and yet, the Holy Spirit placed these verses in the Bible. I am unable to conceive of any reason that God would tell His followers the consequences of the sin of a righteous man, if He also had taught that a righteous man was INCAPABLE of sinning.

Consider, again this verse:

Ezekiel 33:13
If I tell the RIGHTEOUS man that he will surely live, but then he trusts in
his RIGHTEOUSness and does evil, none of the RIGHTEOUS things he has
done will be remembered; he will die for the evil he has done.

In the context of Ezekiel 33:1-20:

6 'But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet and the people are not warned, and a sword comes and takes a person from them, he is ⁽⁶⁾ taken away in his iniquity; but his ⁽⁷⁾ blood I will require from the watchman's hand.'

8 "When I say to the wicked, 'O wicked man, you will ⁽¹⁰⁾ surely die,' and you do not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but his blood I will require from your hand.
⁹ "But if you on your part warn a wicked man to turn from his way and he ⁽¹¹⁾ does not turn from his way, he will die in his iniquity, but you have ⁽¹²⁾ delivered your life.

I believe that these (and other) verses are a clear warning: IF we teach people that they will live; that present righteousness is a guarantee that no consequences will befall them; we must expect that their blood will be required of us.

DG

[DoorGunner]

 

 [You Wrote:]

IOW, That's an expression of my opinion of your statements, NOT a case of "When I write A, and you claim that I said B," as you maintain.

 

I imagine that your little claque will applaud this sort of sophistry, but it fails to impress me. Presuming that you actually mean this, are we supposed to presume that you don't really MEAN anything you write? Is everything merely your opinion, and that absolves you from all responsibility for the damage your posts may cause?

 

[As to my original assertion:]

"I do not "KNOW," as a matter of absolute certainty, the exact spiritual condition of anybody."

[I hold to this assertion.]

But I must point out that neither does any other human, including you.

It would seem that your response to the above assertions would indicate that you believe that you "KNOW," as a matter of absolute certainty, the exact spiritual condition of some (or all?) people. Please correct me, if that is not an accurate statement of your position.

---

[Now, your question:]

That matter being thus addressed, let's return to the Question which you are still neglecting to answer:

Are ALL INFANTS are immediately GUILTY of the Sin of Adam from the moment of Conception?

 

My only answer to that question is this:

I believe that what the Bible says about it is the truth.

I must further state that my admittedly limited knowledge of the Bible has not shown me any passage which states that the answer to your question should, or must, be YES. Perhaps you know of such a passage.

 

DG