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The UNTHINKABLE -- "Chat session - with Jim Robinson (FR)" -- at Liberty Post?
LP | March 18th, 2004 | Jim Robinson

Posted on 03/18/2004 8:41:52 PM PST by Sabertooth

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To: Amelia
We must move in different circles, because I'm not hearing what you are...
221 posted on 03/20/2004 6:32:17 AM PST by NittanyLion
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To: onyx; Howlin
Like you, I recognize the political reality that either Bush or Kerry will be elected in November, and that keeping Kerry out of office is a worthwhile goal. I see a fair number of people here who seem to want to dismiss that position out-of-hand and take it off the table as a debating point. That's not reasonable. You can't just blow off reality.
222 posted on 03/20/2004 6:38:37 AM PST by DaughterOfAnIwoJimaVet ("Lashing out" at Democrats since 1990.)
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To: DaughterOfAnIwoJimaVet; Central Scrutiniser; NittanyLion
I take nothing for granted. We only won by 536 votes last time. Trying to move the party to the right is fine and it is good, but I fail to see how anything is gained by hammering away at President Bush on a hyperbole binge.

I'd like to see the party moved to the right, but I'm sincerely not sure that it can be done at this time if we hope to win. Perhaps CS knows where to find some statistical data which would prove or disprove this point? I've spent hours searching and have so far been unable to come up with the specific RNC poll which first led me to this conclusion.

During the last election, Al Gore got a bit more than half of the popular vote. Polls now show the "likely vote" about evenly split between Bush & Kerry.

If the majority of the voters actually tend to be more conservative than Bush, how did Gore get so many votes, and why are so many voters considering Kerry? It doesn't make sense.

Polls also show that people tend to "trust" the Democrats more on domestic issues - and the Democrats tend to be more socialistic. This also tells me that the general public is less conservative than many FReepers would like to believe.

I think President Bush is doing what he needs to do to win, and I think if he ran as most FReepers would like him to run, he'd end up as the candidates many of us supported ended up in the 2000 primaries - with very few votes, and asterisks in the footnotes of history.

Face it, in many respects we are the conservative version of Deaniacs.

223 posted on 03/20/2004 6:48:18 AM PST by Amelia
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To: NittanyLion
We must move in different circles, because I'm not hearing what you are...

Entirely possible. I was careful to quantify that what I hear people saying is in no way comparable to a scientific survey.

There are those on FR who claim they don't have anything to do with liberal relatives, and they have no liberal friends. I don't know if you're one of those people or not.

My friends, relatives, acquaintances and coworkers run the gamut from very conservative to apolitical to rather liberal, so I think I do hear a variety of views, but I wouldn't claim to know everything, or even to quantitatively "have my finger on the pulse of America" based on that....

224 posted on 03/20/2004 6:59:34 AM PST by Amelia
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To: Amelia
Entirely possible. I was careful to quantify that what I hear people saying is in no way comparable to a scientific survey.

Sure - the same goes for mine. Completely anecdotal.

There are those on FR who claim they don't have anything to do with liberal relatives, and they have no liberal friends. I don't know if you're one of those people or not. My friends, relatives, acquaintances and coworkers run the gamut from very conservative to apolitical to rather liberal, so I think I do hear a variety of views, but I wouldn't claim to know everything, or even to quantitatively "have my finger on the pulse of America" based on that....

Mine do as well. I have some that vote straight Democrat, others that voted Bush, Clinton, Clinton, Bush, and others that are hardcore conservatives. But my knowledge/experience is obviously just as limited as yours...

225 posted on 03/20/2004 10:16:33 AM PST by NittanyLion
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To: Amelia
freerepublic.com's stated mission is to advance conservative causes and ideas. Not liberal-in-conservative-clothing's causes. Not moderate causes. Not Republican Party causes.

You have a better option? As you explain it, please also include an explanation of why the practical result of your strategy would not be the election of Kerry.

The problem with this statement, and this whole thread discussion imo, is that each of you is missing a crucial ingredient here. No one in a conservative setting will argue the merits of Kerry over Bush NOW; the problem is that so-called Bush-Bots have proudly been unwilling to listen to these concerns for the last three-and-a-half years. Perhaps over the course of that time, results could have been affected with which we could all live.

Answer a question for me please. What do you think was the single-worst policy change/legislation to come out of Washington during the Clinton administration?

226 posted on 03/20/2004 10:19:06 AM PST by Frito Bandito
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To: Frito Bandito
Which is why the very notion that freerepublic.com has any bearing on the outcome of 11/2004 is a joke. So why compromise conservative principles and support the liberal republican?

I think the whole notion that people are not free at Freerepublic to discuss issues is, for the most part, a bad rap. When it comes to issues (as opposed to personalities), I see a very wide variety of views expressed.

As I see it, the problems usually result from a poster's decision to personalize an issue either by insulting another poster who has expressed a different opinion or by castigating a politician who has expressed a different opinion, either of which adds little or nothing of substance to the case that the poster is trying to make.

There is more than one way to deal with, say, the Medicare issue. One way is to actually learn something about the bill, discuss both its strengths and weaknesses, and advocate in favor of alternatives that the poster might prefer, including the reasons for which those alternatives might be preferable. Note that with this approach, there is no need to mention the name of any other freeper, there is no need to mention the name of any politician and there is no need to use ShTFIL ("shorthand terms for the ignorant and lazy")

The other way, employing the ShTFIL style, is to begin by associating another freeper with some loathesome condition or disease ("commie," "liberal" "statist," "traitor," etc.), then explaining that the other freeper's position is merely symptomatic of that loathesome condition or disease, then adding that the President (or any other politician) who supports the bill or position in question secretly suffers from the same loathesome condition or disease, then concluding that the freeper and the President and all similar ilk should rot in hell for trying to destroy the poster's country.

Usually, when I see a post pulled around here, it's a variation on the ShTFIL style of posting. ;-)

227 posted on 03/20/2004 11:02:00 AM PST by Scenic Sounds (Sí, estamos libres sonreír otra vez - ahora y siempre.)
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To: Scenic Sounds
That post should be required reading around here.
228 posted on 03/20/2004 11:26:32 AM PST by DaughterOfAnIwoJimaVet ("Lashing out" at Democrats since 1990.)
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To: Frito Bandito
No one in a conservative setting will argue the merits of Kerry over Bush NOW; the problem is that so-called Bush-Bots have proudly been unwilling to listen to these concerns for the last three-and-a-half years.

Look, your first post, and your problem, is TODAY.

We can't change the past 3-1/2 years - they are gone. No point in discussing it right now.

What is your strategy for TODAY?

229 posted on 03/20/2004 11:39:30 AM PST by Amelia
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To: Amelia
You are so nailing it, Amelia.
230 posted on 03/20/2004 12:54:13 PM PST by DaughterOfAnIwoJimaVet ("Lashing out" at Democrats since 1990.)
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To: Amelia
What is your strategy for TODAY?

My strategy? Vote my principles. The real question is what is George Bush going to do TODAY to convince me that a vote for him and a vote for Kerry aren't votes for two different shades of the same color?

I did my part last election. GOP House, Senate, Executive, and (some would argue) Supreme Court. And we got more government entitlements, privacy invasions, and bloat. We've seen them cower to the left when attempting to appoint judges. Sorry. I'm done with them unless I see a change in their actions. The only voice I have - and the only language they understand - is my vote. I intend to use it. I do not intend to reward their further erosion of my childrens' liberties with another term.

231 posted on 03/20/2004 12:59:11 PM PST by Frito Bandito
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To: Frito Bandito
I'm all for the free exchange of ideas, don't get me wrong, I enjoy reading the different views presented. I was just noting that Todd is silly if he thinks that he can extrapolate the total number of folks on the internet into a number that post on political boards that would have a statistically signifigant impact on the elections. I'm glad there is place where like minded people can discuss and argue politics, whatever kind of polits that may be.
232 posted on 03/20/2004 1:01:54 PM PST by Central Scrutiniser (Play the accordian, go to jail, Its the law!)
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To: onyx; Amelia; Frito Bandito; Scenic Sounds
I, like you onyx, would rather see the bickering end. I understand that you would love to see the wayward conservatives back into the fold. It seems to me that's the spirit of this whole thread. That in itself is good.

IMO it's never going to happen while refusing to recognize that their concerns about Bush all along were, if not right, at least their perogative (and something for which they shouldn't have been shunned).

I think most of you know in your hearts that Bush, while doing some good things, has not been what all American conservatives wanted and needed, and he has taken us for granted (for better or worse). The time to "fix" that might be past, but it's not like no one tried. It wouldn't kill you to acknowledge this.

I do NOT want a fight over this, it's just my opinion and take it for what it's worth. Or not.

Have a nice afternoon!

233 posted on 03/20/2004 1:44:46 PM PST by lainie
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To: lainie
...wayward conservatives...

which side of this 'issue' are you calling wayward? :)

234 posted on 03/20/2004 2:41:48 PM PST by Frito Bandito
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To: lainie; Frito Bandito
My strategy? Vote my principles. The real question is what is George Bush going to do TODAY to convince me that a vote for him and a vote for Kerry aren't votes for two different shades of the same color?

I think most of you know in your hearts that Bush, while doing some good things, has not been what all American conservatives wanted and needed, and he has taken us for granted (for better or worse).


Well, I'm a little confused. It's not like Bush ran as a far-right conservative in 2000. I thought he'd done pretty much what he said he'd do when he was running.

I'm having trouble understanding quite why some people feel that Bush has "let them down".

I haven't liked all he's done domestically, but then again, I didn't expect to, because he was running pretty much to the middle. He's handled the War on Terror and foreign relations very well IMO.

I also can't see how voting for anyone else will accomplish any conservative goals -- I wish someone would explain that to me.

235 posted on 03/20/2004 3:04:44 PM PST by Amelia
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To: Amelia
Waiting breathlessly for a reply to your question....one that shows how withholding a vote for President Bush will promote conservative goals.
236 posted on 03/20/2004 3:12:49 PM PST by MEG33 (John Kerry's been AWOL for two decades on issues of National Security!)
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To: Xenalyte; lainie
Bump your remarks.
lainie, more than enough time to get you on board for election 2004.
I'm not happy with some of Bush's policies,
but I sure as "h" hate all of Kerry's.
237 posted on 03/20/2004 3:27:31 PM PST by onyx (Kerry' s a Veteran, but so were Lee Harvey Oswald, Timothy McVeigh and Benedict Arnold.)
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To: MEG33
Waiting breathlessly for a reply to your question....one that shows how withholding a vote for President Bush will promote conservative goals.

It's like I said earlier, in 2000 Bush wasn't even in my "top 5" during the GOP primaries - too far to the middle.

When it came to the general election, though, I did vote for him, because I surely did not want Al Gore.

President Bush is not all I'll like on immigration, and he does believe in using the Federal government more than I'd like - but John Kerry would be much worse. John Kerry is also pro-abortion, pro-Kyoto, would, I believe, hand back part of our foreign policy to the UN, and he's promised to raise taxes.

There's also the matter of judges - the Supreme Court is a potential issue. President Bush has appointed conservative judges to the federal bench; it's Congress that hasn't confirmed them. What would Kerry do?

I can't prove it, but I'm fairly well convinced that no one could win if they were running much right of President Bush. I don't think the country as a whole is that conservative right now.

238 posted on 03/20/2004 3:34:59 PM PST by Amelia
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To: Amelia
We agree.

Through the internet, I have learned about how much wealth,directly and through foundations, is going into left wing causes and it is scary.

There are the commies,the socialists,the useful idiots being funded by grants from the very wealthy and the public just hear the names which sound so nice:
Peace,Children,Justice,Fairness,Jobs,etc.Kerry is aligned with some of these people.
239 posted on 03/20/2004 3:59:26 PM PST by MEG33 (John Kerry's been AWOL for two decades on issues of National Security!)
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To: onyx
I understand. Really, I do.

The spin and inkling of gang-up in the last hour will keep me from continuing today. I was hoping it wouldn't happen. Going back to (what I perceive as) the main reason for this thread, I'm just not gonna go there. See ya around!
240 posted on 03/20/2004 4:03:48 PM PST by lainie
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