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Is There Something Wrong With The Term: "War Between the States?"
Old Virginia Blog ^ | 01-06-2014 | Richard G. Williams, Jr.

Posted on 01/11/2014 11:16:07 AM PST by Davy Buck

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To: rockrr
Unless or until legally resolved to mutual satisfaction the fort and the ground it say on belonged to the United States.

The states were no longer united, thus the United States had ceased to exist, except in the aggressive minds of Lincoln and his staff. How you figure Washington DC is an entity that owns things is beyond me. Collective property is not by definition the sole property of on party. The North was already way ahead on possession of the collective property, but they claimed a right to all of it. Very aggressive and hostile.

221 posted on 01/12/2014 12:38:19 PM PST by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
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To: rockrr

What is belligerent about asking to be left alone?


222 posted on 01/12/2014 12:44:30 PM PST by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
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Comment #223 Removed by Moderator

To: SampleMan

Another silly canard. The slavers had no - zero, zip, nada desire to be “left alone”. They demanded that the other states hew the line with whatever bullsnot that the slavers came up with and routinely threatened to “take their ball and go home” whenever they didn’t get their way.

Once they declared their pretended secession they started stealing everything that wasn’t nailed down - and much that was. They forced the governments of Arizona, New Mexico, and California into puppet states. They conducted guerrilla warfare in all of the border states. He had no desire to be “left alone”.


224 posted on 01/12/2014 12:51:04 PM PST by rockrr (Everything is different now...)
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To: SampleMan

Since its inception the United States has never “ceased to exist”. There was that one short period of southron temper tantrums but we fixed that ;’)


225 posted on 01/12/2014 12:52:43 PM PST by rockrr (Everything is different now...)
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To: SampleMan
Unilateral secession doesn't work because the seceding states rarely show respect for the government and country that they are aspiring to leave.

Treating what until recently they'd thought of as their country now as an enemy or as some nothing to be despoiled at will produces bad blood and an inevitably hostile reaction from the rest of the country.

If you want to learn from experience, look at recent arrangements in Canada and the UK where both sides worked together to create conditions for possible Quebec or Scottish independence.

But I suspect the point of all these arguments is precisely not to learn anything. It's to go around with the same "f-you" attitude that worked out so poorly for everyone the last go-around.

It's not the goal of independence that some people actually want. It's all the adolescent drama of slamming the door on the way out and shouting parting obscenities. It's not the actual change in one's status that's valued, but the feeling that one was right and justified all along in whatever one does.

226 posted on 01/12/2014 1:04:46 PM PST by x
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To: DoodleDawg

Antietam was a counter attack after Lincoln sent an army to take Richmond, but point taken.


227 posted on 01/12/2014 1:07:26 PM PST by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
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To: x

Actually the point was that a war was not inevitable. Had Lincoln opted to negotiate vs dominate, there would have been no war. I point you to Czechoslovakia, where neither side demanded a union.

Self-determination is a very basic and fundamental right. It is also a difficult one to define and be logical/fair about. It is not at all clear that the Constitution bars a state from leaving the union. Indeed, the organization of the federal government reads like a confederation.


228 posted on 01/12/2014 1:52:06 PM PST by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
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To: rockrr

Yea, Sherman fixed the hell out of it. Cromwell did likewise with Ireland.


229 posted on 01/12/2014 1:53:45 PM PST by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
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To: SampleMan
War is hell. don't start something you can't finish.
230 posted on 01/12/2014 1:54:50 PM PST by rockrr (Everything is different now...)
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To: rockrr

First , taking ones ball and going home is by definition wanting to be left alone. Only a bully then chases the kid home and forces them to play.

The border states fought amongst themselves with plenty of bad players on both sides. Lincoln made this worse by using force to pressure states like Missouri to fight.


231 posted on 01/12/2014 1:58:53 PM PST by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
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To: SampleMan
Hey Reb, study the South behavior prior to 4/12/61 OK? The South wanted war and got it. And lost.
232 posted on 01/12/2014 2:07:31 PM PST by jmacusa ("Chasing God out of the classroom didn't usher in The Age of Reason''.)
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To: x

How do those claiming that secession is unacceptable explain the creation of West Virginia by the defenders of the sacred undividable union?


233 posted on 01/12/2014 2:38:30 PM PST by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
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To: SampleMan
Lincoln could have sent negotiators to decide how much of the standing navy, army, western lands, etc. rightfully was due to be turned over to the South

He didn't have to, it is historical fact that the South sent a peace delegation to DC that Lincoln totally ignored.

234 posted on 01/12/2014 2:43:45 PM PST by central_va (I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: rockrr

In Lincoln’s second inaugural he talked about Southern peace agents. The South sent many to DC and all were ignored.


235 posted on 01/12/2014 2:44:43 PM PST by central_va (I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: SampleMan
Unilateral secession is "unacceptable" and in fact illegal.
236 posted on 01/12/2014 2:47:20 PM PST by rockrr (Everything is different now...)
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To: central_va

They weren’t “peace agents”. They were demand agents.


237 posted on 01/12/2014 2:49:26 PM PST by rockrr (Everything is different now...)
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To: jmacusa

More nonsense. You most certainly accepted all the propaganda at face value.

I was raised up north and learned the same nonsense, but the facts don’t support it. The Southern states just wanted the Northern states to let them be. The North decided it was worth decimating both peoples to force a union on the unwilling.

The North, like the Russians, had enough men and material to ultimately overcome superior fighters.

Now, as a personal moral matter, had I had to choose a country in 1861, I would have chosen the North, not the CSA. The things I am pointing out are the facts, not the way I’d like them to be.


238 posted on 01/12/2014 2:50:37 PM PST by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
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To: SampleMan

I forget....who fired the first shot?


239 posted on 01/12/2014 2:57:02 PM PST by Benito Cereno
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To: Benito Cereno

The North was the first to take hostile action. That is quite clear. That South Carolina responded doesn’t change that fact.


240 posted on 01/12/2014 4:15:51 PM PST by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
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