Stop calling me your BFF! I'm only an anime character!
Posted on 06/21/2011 1:55:34 PM PDT by rxsid
"Anyway, Vattle is a 300 year old French person from France"
* He wrote Law of Nations in French.
* He spent no significant amount of time in France...let alone being "from France."
... "so who cares what he thinks about anything!!!"
* Colonists (i.e. not necessarily just framers or founders) thought Vattel a "Genius" as early as 1764.
* Earlier that year, patriot and advocate of the political views that led to the American Revolution, James Otis Jr wrote: The Rights of the British Colonies Asserted and Proved (1764). This pamphlet sets down another important philosophy underpinning the Revolutionary debate: it asserts that rights are not derived from human institutions, but from nature and God. Thus, government does not exist to please monarchs, but to promote the good of the entire society. His arguments are clearly based on natural law concepts. He quotes the law of nature and Vattel, specifically.
* In the early 1770's, Boston revolutionary leader, founding father and one of the architects of the principles of American republicanism, Samuel Adams begins using natural law principles, and Vattel in particular to make arguments against the British Common Law position that every man owes a perpetual allegiance to the crown, and that the British Parliament can not change their "Constitution" by themselves (without the peoples consent)...thus helping to solidify the groundwork for the movement for Independence.
* John Adams begins to make similar arguments in 1773.
* In the mid 1770's, we see members of the 2nd Continental Congress begin to refer to the authority of Vattel's work.
* In 1775, Benjamin Franklin writes to Charles Dumas: "I am much obliged by the kind present you have made us of your edition of Vattel, It came to us in good season, when the circumstances of a rising State make it necessary frequently to consult the law of nations. Accordingly, that copy which I kept (after depositing one in our own publick library here, and sending the other to the College of Massachusetts-Bay, as you directed) has been continually in the hands of the members of our Congress now sitting, who are much pleased with your notes and preface, and have entertained a high and just esteem for their author."
* All of this happens prior to the Declaration of Independence, which is filled with references to natural law.
* Even John Adam's wife, the erudite Abigail, reads Vattel's work.
* The framers of the Constitution read and reference Vattel's Law of Nations during the penning of the Constitution.
Etc.
"(I don’t spell Vattel right on purpose because it just seems so stupid to me.)"Do you think the founders and framers were stupid to read, reference and rely upon Vattel's legal treatise Law of Nations covering natural law?
"Then we have the British Vattle Birthers who think Obama is British because his father was British, but that seems stupid, too, because the Queen of England ain’t the Boss of Me!!!"
* “When Barack Obama Jr. was born on Aug. 4,1961, in Honolulu, Kenya was a British colony, still part of the United Kingdom’s dwindling empire. As a Kenyan native, Barack Obama Sr. was a British subject whose citizenship status was governed by The British Nationality Act of 1948. That same act governed the status of Obama Sr.‘s children."http://fightthesmears.com/articles/5/birthcertificate.html
* "In other words, at the time of his birth, Barack Obama Jr. was both a U.S. citizen (by virtue of being born in Hawaii)# and a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies (or the UKC) by virtue of being born to a father who was a citizen of the UKC." http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/does_barack_obama_have_kenyan_citizenship.html# Assumes yet to be proven HI birth
* There is no law in the United States, that would (or could) deny Barry from inheriting his foreign fathers British citizenship even if he were born on the steps of the Lincoln memorial. To suggest otherwise, is to suggest that U.S. law reigns supreme over a British subject and effectively nullifies their British rights and laws simply because that British subject is here as a visiting student (as Barry's father was). See the Jay Treaty for further information. Barry's father was a British subject. Barry inherited, by birthright, his foreign fathers foreign citizenship.
Interestingly, you then seem to do a complete 180 and quote the ridiculous Ankeny v. Governor of the State of Indiana case and essentially suggest that our American common law is British common law. Fascinating the turn of events there.
However, James Madison (father of the Constitution) and George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights) disagreed with that notion.
Will you be issuing corrections to your blog?
WKA DOES affirm the finding in Minor and proceeded to create a definition of "citizenship by birth" via the 14th amendment because the court could NOT declare Ark to be a natural born citizen.
Minor v. Happersett (1874), 21 Wall. 162, 166-168. The decision in that case was that a woman born of citizen parents within the United States was a citizen of the United States ...
The paragraph prior to this cited Waite's definition of natural born citizen from the Minor decision and two paragraphs prior, Gray noted that the court was "committed to the view that or subjects of foreign States were excluded from the operation of the first sentence of the Fourteenth Amendment ..." This is the last time in Wong Kim Ark decision that Gray says anything about natural born citizenship. Ark obviously didn't meet this definition. Gray had to shift his focus to the 14th amendment AND to the idea that the Constitution could override a treaty with China in respect to citizenship and that a child of foreign subjects could be born a citizen without the parents becoming citizens.
So, going on about how you've been saying the same thing for months that Leo is now "patting himself on the back" over makes you look silly because you aren't saying the same thing as Leo.
Sorry, buck, but I didn't say I was saying the "same thing" as Leo. I said I've been citing the Minor decision and the affirmation of that decision by Wong Kim Ark for months. Here's what Leo wrote in his essay:
The direct US Supreme Court precedent is stated in Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. 162 (1875). Furthermore, the precedent stated in Minor is consistent with other US Supreme Court cases – both before and after Minor – which discuss the natural born citizen issue.
There are several parts of his argument that are similar to things I and others have already posted, such as:
There you have it. The Court stops short of construing the 14th Amendment as to whether the woman in question was a US citizen. The Court made a certain, direct determination that Mrs. Minor was a US citizen before the adoption of the 14th Amendment and that she did not need the 14th Amendment to be a US citizen.
Sure, it looks just like Vattel’s definition, but Vattel does not make legal precedent – the US Supreme Court does.
By recognizing Mrs. Minor as a member of the class of persons who were natural-born citizens, they established her citizenship. Establishing her citizenship was required before they could get to the issue of whether she had the right to vote.
This class is specifically defined as “natural-born citizens” by the Court. The other class – those born in the US without citizen “parents” – may or may not be “citizens”. But the Minor Court never suggested that this other class might also be natural-born citizens.
Wong Kim Ark is specifically limited to determining who is a citizen under the 14th Amendment.
Actually, philman_36 has irritated me sooo much that I am going to write my third Vattle Birther Internet Article on my blog and in this one I will not hold back!!! I mean REALLY, he is trying to prove I am a Obot, sooo he goes to Obotski Central and links a 9 month old Internet Article where I spent like 300+ pages arguing with them all by myself against like 20 of them??? (And there are some more threads on that site too where it was like me by myself against a million Obotski.) Talk about Reading Comprehension Challenged!!!
As far as what Vattle was, Swiss or French, it is not a big deal to me. He wasn’t a American and maybe people read him or not. I have read the book by the guy who did the Witch Trials, but it doesn’t make me a witch.
The common law question you asked is not something I know anything about, sooo I will ask my BFF Fabia Sheen, Esq. about it, and if I am wrong on something there, then I will certainly correct it on my blog. (But right off hand, I don’t remember ever talking about it???)
Sorry, but the only person who has "blinded" himself is you. Read the decision. Minor's claim of citizenship is a central part of the case:
The argument is, that as a woman, born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, is a citizen of the United States and of the State in which she resides, she has the right of suffrage as one of the privileges and immunities of her citizenship, which the State cannot by its laws or constitution abridge.
Her citizenship was part of the question and the court (part of which you quoted) rejected her argument on the basis of the 14th amendment because she was, by the court's definition, a natural born citizen.
If she had an alien parent, THEN they would have needed to determine if NBC applied to those born with alien parents - but she did not have an alien parent.
Sorry, but the court said if she was not born in the country to citizen parents, then doubt would need to be resolved about her simply being a citizen. If she was a natural born citizen, there would be no doubt. Thus, anyone who does not meet the definition of born in the country to citizen parents is not a natural born citizen. They MIGHT be a citizen, such as through the 14th amendment, but they are not a natural born citizen.
“Sorry, but the court said if she was not born in the country to citizen parents, then doubt would need to be resolved about her simply being a citizen.”
Given that the 14th had passed, this statement is simply false.
The court found there was no doubt about her having been a citizen by birth, and it was admitted in the case - so citizenship by birth was not the issue.
I’ve quoted the court case. Your quote confirms what I wrote:
“The argument is, that as a woman, born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, is a citizen of the United States and of the State in which she resides, she has the right of suffrage as one of the privileges and immunities of her citizenship, which the State cannot by its laws or constitution abridge.”
In this case, it didn’t matter if she was a citizen by birth or naturalized. Does citizenship confer the right to vote? That is what they were asked, and that is what the decision is about.
You don't seem to get it. Virginia Minor claimed citizenship via the 14th amendment and the court rejected her claim. Read the damn decision:
The argument is, that as a woman, born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, is a citizen of the United States ...
That is a quote of the citizenship clause of the 14th amendment. Again, the court rejected this claim.
...in our opinion, it did not need this amendment to give them that position ...
The fourteenth amendment did not affect the citizenship of women any more than it did of men.
... the rights of Mrs. Minor do not depend upon the amendment.
The amendment prohibited the State, of which she is a citizen, from abridging any of her privileges and immunities as a citizen of the United States; but it did not confer citizenship on her.
Do you think the founders and framers were stupid to read, reference and rely upon Vattel's legal treatise Law of Nations covering natural law?
And while your chatting with your lawyer friend, ask them if Madison and Mason were wrong when the framers themselves wrote:
October 18, 1787 - James Madison wrote to George Washington, N. York:
"Since the Revolution every State has made great inroads & with great propriety in many instances on this monarchical code.[Edit: Englands "Common Law"] The "revisal of the laws" by a Committe of wch. Col. Mason [Edit: George Mason] was a member, though not an acting one, abounds with such innovations. The abolition of the right of primogeniture, which I am sure Col. Mason does not disapprove, falls under this head.. What could the Convention have done? If they had in general terms declared the Common law to be in force, they would have broken in upon the legal Code of every State in the most material points: they wd. have done more, they would have brought over from G.B. a thousand heterogeneous & anti-republican doctrines, and even the ecclesiastical Hierarchy itself, for that is a part of the Common law."
June 18, 1788 - George Mason, In Convention, Richmond (Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution), states:
"We have it in our power to secure our liberties and happiness on the most unshaken, firm, and permanent basis. We can establish what government we please. But by that paper we are consolidating the United States into one great government, and trusting to constructive security. You will find no such thing in the English government. The common law of England is not the common law of these states."
Just as they had done more than a decade earlier by declaring their independence from the crown, here we see the father of the Constitution, and the father of the Bill of Rights rejecting the English Common Law as being the American Common Law.
Does your lawyer friend alleged to know what Mason and Madison meant to say was in contrast to what they actually wrote.
Also ask your lawyer friend just how, did the Colonists declare their independence from the crown...when British common law essentially forbade it since they (the Colonists) were considered in perpetual allegiance to the crown.
Hold back? Hold back what? The truth? The history? Or do you mean you intend to correct the record from your previous article? You've already demonstrated you've gotten it wrong with the other article as I've documented. Are you intentionally trying to mislead the few people who visit your blog by attempting to rewrite (or bury) the history and the influences upon our founders and framers?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Bury?
This must be one of the “shovel-ready” jobs Obama promised ( and you and I get to pay for it!) :-(
Minor was using the 14th amendment's equal protection aspect to claim the right to vote.
The court said before we decide that, we have to know that she is a citizen at all, because only citizens can vote.
The court said that Article II Section 1 establishes the phrase "natural born citizen." The court also said that natural born citizen was commonly understood at the time of the Framers to be a child born in the country of two citizen parents of the country.
The court observed that some authorities also consider a child of one citizen parent to be a citizen (absent the descriptive "natural born"), but since that situation doesn't exist with Minor, there is no need to resolve the issue of a single-citizen parent conferring citizen status to a child in order to settle the issue of whether she can vote.
The court concluded that the 14th amendment's naturalization aspect did not apply to Minor, because her citizenship was established via Article II Section 1.
The argument that Donofrio is making is that the court stipulated to the definition of "natural born citizen" in order to determine that Minor was a citizen first (a natural born citizen specifically), and then used that stipulation to proceed with the direct issue before them.
Donofrio is claiming that in so stipulating, the court established a precedent on the definition of "natural born citizen."
Is that a fair summary of the discussions in this thread?
-PJ
No. She claimed the 14th amendment gave her the right to vote under the equal protection clause.
I don’t expect to convince a blind man, but here is the decision in full for anyone who doubts me:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0088_0162_ZO.html
“Being unanimously of the opinion that the Constitution of the United States does not confer the right of suffrage upon any one, and that the constitutions and laws of the several States which commit that important trust to men alone are not necessarily void, we AFFIRM THE JUDGMENT.”
To affirm means to uphold a judgment. WKA does not uphold the judgment made in Minor of the definition of a natural-born citizen. In WKA Justice Gray mentions Minor to point out that Justice Waite resorted to common law to find a definition of something not defined in the Constitution and then to discuss the implications of owing allegiance. The Court determines that Wong Kim Ark is a citizen under the meaning of the 14th Amendment. That determination did not require a judgment on the defintion of a natural-born citizen.
Sorry, buck, but I didn't say I was saying the "same thing" as Leo.
You said you didn't know why Leo was patting himself on the back because you had been saying x for months. That most certainly implies that you believe you said x before Leo discovered it. (Which is childish and also incorrect.) Then later you suggested that you weren't looking for credit and went on to criticize Leo for touting his analysis as some sort of "breakthrough legal epiphany." There is a second implication that you've already covered what Leo is only now analyzing.
No, that's not quite right. Minor wasn't just citing the equal protection clause, but the citizenship clause as part of her right to vote, and the court did not say it needed to know if she was a citizen at all, but whether she was a 14th amendment citizen, and whether women, as a class, had their citizenship affected by the 14th amendment. Here it is again, as expressed by the court.
The argument is, that as a woman, born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, is a citizen of the United States and of the State in which she resides, she has the right of suffrage as one of the privileges and immunities of her citizenship, which the State cannot by its laws or constitution abridge.The court observed that some authorities also consider a child of one citizen parent to be a citizen (absent the descriptive "natural born"), but since that situation doesn't exist with Minor, there is no need to resolve the issue of a single-citizen parent conferring citizen status to a child in order to settle the issue of whether she can vote.
That's not quite right. The court made a distinction between NBCs (born in the country to citizen parents - plural) and everyone else, who the court identified as aliens or foreigners. It said some authorities include persons born in the country as citizens, without regarding the citizenship of the parents, but for these persons, there is doubt about their citizenship. It noted that aliens could become citizens through naturalization, but that the citizenship of an alien's wife and children were dependent upon the alien becoming naturalized. Donofrio was right about one thing here: the Minor decision doesn't specifically really address whose citizenship is controlled by the 14th amendment. It just rejects the 14th amendment for those persons who are NBCs.
The court concluded that the 14th amendment's naturalization aspect did not apply to Minor, because her citizenship was established via Article II Section 1.
Again, that's not quite what the court was saying. It said citizenship could be added by birth, which is evident because of the NBC clause in Art II Sec I. It doesn't say the clause establishes citizenship, but instead said the term NBC is not defined by or in the Constitution. This is a very important point because it categorically rejects the 14th amendment as somehow defining or redefing what it means to be a natural born citizen. Read the court's words:
The Constitution does not, in words, say who shall be natural-born citizens. Resort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that. At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.
Thus, the court is saying Virginia Minor's citizenship is established by a common-law type of definition (not English Common Law, but what appears to be nearly a verbatim citation of Vattel's definition of natural citizenship).
The argument that Donofrio is making is that the court stipulated to the definition of "natural born citizen" in order to determine that Minor was a citizen first (a natural born citizen specifically), and then used that stipulation to proceed with the direct issue before them.
That's pretty much right. The idea is that the court looked to the Constitution to find a term that it used to establish the citizenship of an appellee, and then proceeded to define that term from outside of the Constitution. In effect, it's rejecting the 14th amendment for a certain class of citizens. The timing of this decision is noteworthy. It was the perfect opportunity to resolve the doubt they talked about by simply accepting Virginia Minor's argument. "Yes, Virginia, the 14th amendment redefines citizenship for everyone who was born or naturalized here." But they did not do this. They said in their opinion, the 14th amendment was not needed. From that point, they explain how voting is not a "privilege or immunity" or a generic right of citizenship.
Fast forward 20 some years later to the Wong Kim Ark decision. The Supreme Court looks at the Minor decision and notes that Virginia Minor was found to be a citizen under its definition if NBC. Wong Kim Ark did not meet that NBC definition, so that court decided to resolve doubts about him being a citizen by other means. The court in Wong Kim Ark directly cited Minor's definition and affirmed its citizenship criteria. It then followed the precedent of the Minor decision by purposely NOT declaring Ark to be a natural born citizen. Without the Minor decision, the court could have made a pretty compelling case that birth in the country was sufficient on its own to make somebody a natural born citizen. They did not do this.
Thus, the court is saying Virginia Minor's citizenship is established by a common-law type of definition (not English Common Law, but what appears to be nearly a verbatim citation of Vattel's definition of natural citizenship).
This may be quibbling over a point, but something within the Constitution has to define whom it covers. The Supremacy clause says so, doesn't it. If you have to look elsewhere, then the Constitution ultimately is superior to whatever is found elsewhere.
It sounds like you're saying (and pardon me for hypothetically putting words in your mouth) when "We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union...and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America" to bind us, we have to look elsewhere to find out who "We" and "our Posterity" are?
To me, a common sense understanding would be that people born in the country (our Posterity) of parents who are also citizens of the country (We the people) do not need to look elsewhere to define their citizenship.
The Preamble already lays out that the purpose of the Constitution was to define a country that was meant to be passed down to "our Posterity," meaning the citizen children of citizen parents.
But that's just me. I'm not a lawyer, so what do I know?
-PJ
You're a foil and a poseur. You claim to be something when you're not. You are nothing more than the desired vignette portrayal of Birthers.
You're the great Obot killer and yet you have no trophies, just blog links.
You've a great intellect yet you don't even know the most basic things you should to even appear to be informed.
Your "performance" needs some serious work.
How is that admission of error on "Ark" coming along? Do you still believe it means Arkansas?
The only problem I have is this...
...her citizenship was established via Article II Section 1.
Her citizenship was established by the circumstances of her birth, not the Constitution.
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