Posted on 05/01/2011 7:24:18 AM PDT by Ethan Clive Osgoode
I'd guess for JCB, it's the latter.
In any case, he keeps nattering away about the salvation prospects of "tribals" who have not heard the message of Jesus Christ, demanding to know whether they can be "saved."
In a much earlier post, I told JCB that I do not know the specifics of how God judges in such matters. I do know that Jesus Christ died for all men, including *tribals.*
And you are so right, metmom, to insist that men are not saved by dogma, but only by the Person of Christ, Who says of Himself:
I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.To me, this says that even the *tribals* will hear the Voice of Christ on Judgment Day, and will thus have the opportunity to embrace or deny Christ — and be judged saved or condemned accordingly.
As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. — John 10: 14–16
I suspect this will not clear up matters for JCB. But I did try.
Thank you, dear sister in Christ, for your many trenchant essay/posts on this matter!
Thank you very much. :)
Correct...reading stories of tribal individuals who desired to know who the God is is more than interesting. Some got lost in the jungle only to come out into a Missionary camp where they did indeed learn of Christ. Their stories are compelling. At the heart of this was their steadfast and deep yearning to know if there was indeed a God they truly wanted to know Him.......and He did not disappoint them.
Romans 2:12-16 12For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.
Now, God is certainly going to be aware that not everybody had the opportunity to hear about Christ. This passage above by Paul, seems to address the issue.
There are a couple considerations.
One is that God says that there will be people from every tribe, tongue, and nation. One thing that is commonly held to be true by Christians is that there is an age of accountability, at which a person becomes accountable for their sin that they willfully committed. That indicates that there is an age at which sin is not credited to the individual. That age varies as a matter of opinion. So a child that dies before a certain age, will be saved, covered by Christ's atonement.
As a result of that, what with the death rate among children in some cultures, an awful lot of "tribals" will be in heaven. It's only the few people who make it into adulthood who have the decision to make whether to follow God or not. CS Lewis makes that observation in, I believe, The Screwtape Letters.
The other thing is that this verse seems to indicate, is that those who follow God's Law from their conscience will be saved.
My thought on this, and this is just a conclusion that I've come to and others will no doubt disagree, is that God will judge them based on whether they would have accepted Christ, had they heard about Him here on earth.
Anyone who truly desires to follow God will not be cast out. If they have never had a gospel witness of Jesus' death and resurrection for their sin, that is hardly a matter over which they have control.
God is just and will judge justly. That doesn't mean the way that everyone thinks He should but with true justice; impartially, without playing favorites.
There are also accounts of people who have had visions and/or visitations, by angels or Christ, telling them of this.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them, As I live, declares the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel?
“This is why I speak to them in parables: “Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.”
This is so, whether we have heard of Him or not.
JCB has heard of Him — but chooses to deny Him. It is a culpable choice, in no way similar to the situation of *tribals,* who are innocently ignorant of the Word of God and so are incapable of rejecting Him.
Or so it seems to me, dearest sister in Christ!
That comment explains much and is quite telling. Is that also your approach to the Bible?
Let me get this straight, bb: you 'know' this because you choose to believe it, or is your 'knowing' it independent of your will? From your posts, it seems to be the former. Here is why:
You write: To me, this says that even the *tribals* will hear the Voice of Christ on Judgment Day, and will thus have the opportunity to embrace or deny Christ — and be judged saved or condemned accordingly
So, the "tribals" will decide if they are saved or not? Salvation is in the hands of men and not God, i.e. their decision! One is saved by "approving" of God, by embracing Christ, by human will and decision and God is simply waiting on them to decide which way they will go, and he will oblige?
I am not saying it's right or wrong, but it's a novel, if not somewhat narcissistic type of soteriology given that all Christians pray "Thy will be done."
I take it, then, that you believe it really doesn't matter what one believes as long as one "approves" and "accept" Jesus as the Savior? In other words, even the Unitarians who deny Jesus is God, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Gnostic, etc., anyone, no matter what their theology or doctrine, are assured salvation as long as they accept Jesus? Coming form someone who claims to be Catholic, that is rather strange, imo. You sound more like a Universalist for sure.
But betty boop says it doesn't matter. She says anyone is saved as long as they approve of Jesus as their Savior. And metmom says doctrine doesn't matter.
That certainly comes close to those of the houshold of "faith".... who though they had not seen... they nevertheless looked ahead for His coming.
I also think there are various levels of resistance to the promptings of God as He draws men to Himself. He does move the soul of a person but some get sidetracked along the way...they cannot identify the stirring in themselves... and when God meets them thru whatever means He might use, to take them further along the path to Himself, they deny or resist Him. Human nature does not change...it is in a state of rebellion against any authority higher than itself.
Also ...Truth is hard to accept when one has lived years believing and perpetuating a lie. Man's ego is a powerful thing..and pride the downfall of many a man. We live in a time of a great battle for the souls of men...neither side will be letting go easily...but one or the other will indeed win that soul....
The decision ,critical for all eternity, is man's choice what He will or not believe. And the "authority" he's been given to make that choice is His alone....on this side of eternity.... only.
In other words, for the record, betty boop is professing that MAN SAVES HIMSELF. How biblical is that?
I have yet to meet an honest atheist and you are no exception to the rule.
Please provide the sources and links to the comments to back up the assertions you made about what bb and I stated and believe.
You missed their point, understandably.... When one sincerely wants to know and understand then it's given by God. But motive matters...dancing on the edges of the eternal is not wise when it is for selfish gain...no doubt God is watching when men prance their wares on the edges of their eternal destiny.....
I think we have a pretty good hint of that sort of scenerio in: John 4: 9-29
Particularly verse 4: 22: "Ye worship ye know not what, but..." ~ Jesus
He has the choice to believe or not...yes.... Does He want to choose seems to be more the question a man must ask himself.....
....To not make a choice is a no until he decides otherwise.
Backtacking and asking again ..Is that also 'your' approach to the Bible?
The question of course first asked of Mr. Bennett. just to be clear.
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