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When Atheists Attack (Each Other)
Evolution News and Views ^ | April 28 2011 | Davld Klinghoffer

Posted on 05/01/2011 7:24:18 AM PDT by Ethan Clive Osgoode

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To: James C. Bennett; angryoldfatman
Very simple. Evolving morality. From the Old to the New.

But morality didn't change.

What was wrong in the OT is still wrong in the NT.

121 posted on 05/01/2011 7:18:19 PM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus; betty boop; Alamo-Girl

Actually, the main point in atheists using this argument is to justify their rejection of God.

If they can charge Him with evil or immorality, they can condemn Him for it. That allows them to feel morally superior to God and gives them excuse for passing judgment on Him and rejecting Him.

They are judge, jury, and hangman of God based on their own arbitrarily established system of morality which weighs God and finds Him wanting.


122 posted on 05/01/2011 7:23:04 PM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: James C. Bennett; Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus; angryoldfatman
Alright then, give me the context and circumstances that make the killing of those children "good".

Explain why death is bad. Why is the death of that child wrong?

On what basis do you determine that the child's death was wrong?

123 posted on 05/01/2011 7:25:26 PM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: LeGrande; James C. Bennett; Texas Songwriter
God would have to exist outside of the Universe and God can obviously travel faster than the speed of light which means that all distance and time (for God) goes to zero. So eternity for God is simply a singularity.

I understand tha argument, however how do you marry that unchanging condition to God's decision to say "Let there be light."?

124 posted on 05/01/2011 7:30:51 PM PDT by kosta50
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To: LeGrande
....and not boiling a kid in its mothers milk...

What's wrong with not making goat meat casseroles that bothers you so much?

125 posted on 05/01/2011 7:33:38 PM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom; James C. Bennett; angryoldfatman
But morality didn't change. What was wrong in the OT is still wrong in the NT

But the morality did change. What was morally right in the OT is not necessarily morally right today.

126 posted on 05/01/2011 7:34:37 PM PDT by kosta50
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To: LeGrande; Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus; angryoldfatman; James C. Bennett; Ethan Clive Osgoode; ...
Christians have no standing to criticize anyone on morals.

Atheists have no standing to criticize anyone for any thing.

By their worldview, we're all just dust in the wind. Meaningless, purposeless, accidents of chaos in a random universe.

It's hypocritical to condemn one set of beliefs as invalid and arbitrarily set up another of your own preference as valid. There is no legitimate reason for yours to be superior to any others and no reason to use it to condemn others.

The very fact that you do that indicates that you are appealing to an objective standard of right and wrong. And what is the source of that standard, if not God?

127 posted on 05/01/2011 7:42:14 PM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: LeGrande
Do you want to be a Christian if the Muslims are right?

Ahh, a "If a frog had a glass ass" conjecture. Likewise, if 2=4 then Jones is a filbert.

128 posted on 05/01/2011 7:44:29 PM PDT by AndrewC
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To: Texas Songwriter
The Moral Law is based upon the premise that there is such a thing as right and wrong...there are things you "ought" do, and things you "ought not do". These "oughts' are based upon real, objective, standards. That standard is the very nature of God Himself.

Real objective standards that are the nature of God Himself?

Let's take a look at a few of those "Standards". Exodus 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

That is a nice way to start out the Ten commandments don't you think? Punishing children for the sins of their fathers? That is moral?

34:11 Observe thou that which I command thee this day: behold, I drive out before thee the Amorite, and the Canaanite, and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, and the Hivite, and the Jebusite.

Conquering a few countries for no reason at all. Didn't you mention something about Might makes Right? That God's attributes you say.

34:16 And thou take of their daughters unto thy sons, and their daughters go a whoring after their gods, and make thy sons go a whoring after their gods.

That sounds like a fun attribute of God, to take their daughters unto thy sons? Remember these are the morals of your GOD.

34:17 Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.

How is that morality again? It sounds like jealousy to me. Is jealousy Moral?

34:26 The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring unto the house of the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.

I am confused about that commandment. How important really is seething a kid in his mother's milk?

Those are the MORALS of your GOD? The very nature of your GOD itself? Do you even take them seriously?

129 posted on 05/01/2011 7:51:13 PM PDT by LeGrande (I believe in liberty; but I do not believe in liberty enough to want to force it upon anyone.)
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To: Texas Songwriter
"....that God is not good?"

Interesting how the first lie told to humanity keeps coming back again and again and again...

Surely there is no new thing under the sun.

130 posted on 05/01/2011 7:57:58 PM PDT by GourmetDan (Eccl 10:2 - The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left.)
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To: Texas Songwriter
Retreating to agnosticism is a place to cower, but if you want to discuss the subject...step up.

How is describing my lack of religious belief "retreating"?

For that matter, what is it about agnosticism that would cause you to describe it as a "place to cower"?

131 posted on 05/01/2011 8:09:01 PM PDT by Abin Sur
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To: metmom; Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus; betty boop; Alamo-Girl

My opinion on the Scriptural reason for the child’s death is that the child was a ‘type’ of the anti-christ. The picture here is that God could not allow him to become king over God’s people because that is not a true type of the Messiah.

Wives who commit adultery are a ‘type’ of humanity/Israel rejecting God as their husband in favor of a satanic relationship. Men who sleep with other men’ wives take the position of satan coming between the bride and her husband (God). Either way, the offspring of such relationships can never be a type of the Messiah.

God could not allow the child of an adulterous relationship to become king because that is a false ‘type’ of the coming Messiah. The child represented the seed of satan, the antichrist, which is born of satanic adultery by the wife (Israel), dies and does not become king of God’s people. Note that the child dies on the 7th day, representing the beast being cast into the lake of fire at the end of the 7-year tribulation period.

It is the second son of David and Batsheba (the second Adam, Messiah) who becomes King over God’s people forever.


132 posted on 05/01/2011 8:26:03 PM PDT by GourmetDan (Eccl 10:2 - The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left.)
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To: LeGrande; Texas Songwriter
The basic idea is that if you help others and work together you will be much better off. That is the basic "moral" principle that underlies all morality. In other words it is simply selfishness coupled with the understanding that helping and cooperating with others gets you more of whatever you want. That is why it is immoral to lie, steal, murder, etc. Those are all uncooperative acts, hence immoral.

Ah, morality by consensus and communism. How typically atheist of you.

133 posted on 05/01/2011 9:07:53 PM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: LeGrande; Texas Songwriter
Also you have neglected to answer my questions. Is this a discussion or are you simply trying to shout down my reasoned responses?

That is presuming that you have reasoned responses to begin with.

Responses, you have.

Reasoned? Not so much.

You are holding others to standards of proof that you refuse to hold yourself to. By definition, you are a hypocrite.

134 posted on 05/01/2011 9:11:20 PM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: kosta50
What was morally right in the OT is not necessarily morally right today.

Such as?

135 posted on 05/01/2011 9:14:05 PM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: GourmetDan; Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus; Abin Sur; LeGrande; James C. Bennett; betty boop; ...

Very interesting.

I never looked at it that way before.

Another issue is that the prohibition to taking someone’s life is to not murder.

Soldiers are not charged with murder when killing enemy combatants in the line of duty. The executioner is not charged with murder when administering the death penalty at the direction of civil authorities. People are not charged with murder in the event of an accidental death or the killing of someone in self-defense.

And the prohibition against murder is for mankind.

God is the author of life. He determines the number of our days. When He, in His wisdom knowing the beginning from the end, decides that our time has come, He is not killing people. As creator He owns the right to decide when the physical, earthly life is over, but since the eternal, spiritual life is well, eternal, He didn’t really kill anyone.

In addition, it is only mankind which determines that we are all owed a long, happy, healthy, prosperous life and if someone doesn’t fully live out the length of those days in such a way, they have somehow been cheated or robbed or wronged by God somehow.

Thus we see the vapid arguments that God is bad for killing an *innocent* little baby. Based on what? That somehow that child is owed a long, happy, healthy, prosperous life?

Says who?


136 posted on 05/01/2011 9:25:20 PM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom
Such as?

Stoning disobedient children to death, slavery, polygamy, rape, atrocities, etc.

137 posted on 05/01/2011 9:40:06 PM PDT by kosta50
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To: metmom; LeGrande; Texas Songwriter
Ah, morality by consensus and communism

Oh, please, Japan has morality by consensus and it's not "communist".

138 posted on 05/01/2011 9:46:57 PM PDT by kosta50
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To: GourmetDan; LeGrande; kosta50

My opinion on the Scriptural reason for the child’s death is that the child was a ‘type’ of the anti-christ. The picture here is that God could not allow him to become king over God’s people because that is not a true type of the Messiah.
Wives who commit adultery are a ‘type’ of humanity/Israel rejecting God as their husband in favor of a satanic relationship. Men who sleep with other men’ wives take the position of satan coming between the bride and her husband (God). Either way, the offspring of such relationships can never be a type of the Messiah.
God could not allow the child of an adulterous relationship to become king because that is a false ‘type’ of the coming Messiah. The child represented the seed of satan, the antichrist, which is born of satanic adultery by the wife (Israel), dies and does not become king of God’s people. Note that the child dies on the 7th day, representing the beast being cast into the lake of fire at the end of the 7-year tribulation period.
It is the second son of David and Batsheba (the second Adam, Messiah) who becomes King over God’s people forever.

If all this is true, then why did this deity allow the conception of the child in the first place? Surely it was not the Devil's spawn...

139 posted on 05/01/2011 9:54:38 PM PDT by James C. Bennett (An Australian.)
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To: Texas Songwriter; kosta50; LeGrande

Information about what happened before the Big Bang we know about is nil. The Big Bang is not the absolute beginning of all beginnings, just of the Universe we know about.

To that end, if other universes existed before the Big Bang, is a matter of science that is yet unresolved.

My time argument is very valid with respect to a sentient being ordering sequential events. If there is no time, then there is no separation between stages. Without separation, an uncreated Universe and a created one exist at the same moment. That is the absurdity. This absurdity has to be resolved by the deity you speak of. The only solution is to allow time to bring about the separation. Without time, the problem arises. With time, God is no more God.


140 posted on 05/01/2011 10:19:24 PM PDT by James C. Bennett (An Australian.)
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