Posted on 09/07/2010 12:43:35 PM PDT by gjmerits
It was right there in the first sentence of the second paragraph. They were sent to get what they demanded, not negotiate with Lincoln.
Secession was not/is not illegal.
Secession without the consent of the other states is/was. As the Supreme Court noted.
Wildly fanatical speculations of a grossly delusional madman.
Fanatical, yes Davis was fanatical. But a madman? I suppose he was that as well.
First, no property was stolen.
Yes it was, all over the South. Forts, armories, court houses, post offices, mints, revenue cutters, everything the rebels could get their greedy mitts on.
Second, history would have proven the Confederacy's honorable intentions if Linkln hadn't insisted on invading us.
If the south had honorable intent then they would have settled all questions of disagreement before they left. Honorable intent was a foreign concept to Davis and his regime.
Playing the victim has become totally ingrained in you.
Victimization as well as complete denial is your most noteworthy trait as well.
But secession without the consent of the states is illegal, as Madison noted and as the Supreme Court found in 1869. The one inconvenient fact that the Lost Cause Brigade continues to deny, then attempts to ignore, but which keeps coming back to bite them on their Jefferson Davis.
Secession was decided not by law, but with the barrel of a gun. Was it really worth 600,000 lives to try and prove that?
I'm disappointed in you slim-ball.
James Madison:
Two questions of a very delicate nature present themselves on this occasion: 1. On what principle the Confederation, which stands in the solemn form of a compact among the States, can be superseded without the unanimous consent of the parties to it?
The first question is answered at once by recurring to the absolute necessity of the case; to the great principle of self-preservation; to the transcendent law of nature and of nature's God, which declares that the safety and happiness of society are the objects at which all political institutions aim, and to which all such institutions must be sacrificed.
A compact between independent sovereigns, founded on ordinary acts of legislative authority, can pretend to no higher validity than a league or treaty between the parties. It is an established doctrine on the subject of treaties, that all the articles are mutually conditions of each other; that a breach of any one article is a breach of the whole treaty; and that a breach, committed by either of the parties, absolves the others, and authorizes them, if they please, to pronounce the compact violated and void.
Turn out the lights the party's over.
Another Idabooby missive. Oh boy.
"But the ability and the motives disclosed in the Essays induce me to say in compliance with the wish expressed, that I do not consider the proceedings of Virginia in ’98-’99 as countenancing the doctrine that a state may at will secede from its Constitutional compact with the other States. A rightful secession requires the consent of the others, or an abuse of the compact, absolving the seceding party from the obligations imposed by it." - James Madison
Your rebellion was decided by the barrel of a gun, as the South chose. The legality of their underlying actions was decided by the Supreme Court.
Was it really worth 600,000 lives to try and prove that?
Was defeating Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan in the war that they also forced on the U.S. worth the hundreds of thousands of U.S. lives?
Your slightly biased interpretation? Please......
Secession without the consent of the other states is/was. As the Supreme Court noted.
You're not going to drag out Texas v White again, are you? Haven't you had your ass handed to you enough over that one?
Yes it was, all over the South. Forts, armories, court houses, post offices, mints, revenue cutters, everything the rebels could get their greedy mitts on.
No property was stolen. Period.
This is just more of your delusional victimization.
If the south had honorable intent then they would have settled all questions of disagreement before they left.
You know, I know and everybody else knows that Linkln and the yankees would never, ever have agreed to anything.
This is your shell game. It's like asking the question, 'have you stopped beating your wife'. Why don't you try being honest about the situation for once in your miserable life.
Here's some irrefutable facts for ya:
Secession was/is not illegal.
The South legally seceded.
The South sought a peaceful treaty with the yankees.
Linkln did not want peace.
Linkln illegally invaded a sovereign country.
The north has revised history to cover up it's illegal, immoral and dishonorable actions ever since.
Honorable intent was a foreign concept to Davis and his regime.
This coming from the most dishonorable person on FR and, perhaps, the entire interwebz.
Free Dixie!
"or an abuse of the compact, absolving the seceding party from the obligations imposed by it." - James Madison
Consent of the other states becomes moot once the contract has been breached. The yankees breached the contract. The South seceded. Legally.
You have now been officially hoist on your own petard.
“Facts are stubborn things...” John Adams
Madison also said, "The characteristic distinction between free Governments and Governments not free is, that the former are founded on compact, not between the Government and those for whom it acts, but between the parties creating the Government. Each of those being equal, neither can have more rights to say that the compact has been violated and dissolved, than every other has to deny the fact, and to insist on the execution of the bargains."
In short, the contract had not been breeched just because you said it was. The South seceded illegally. The South rebelled.
You have now been officially hoist on your own petard.
In your dreams.
You're having yourself a good ol' rebellion with the facts.... again.
The other position involved in this branch of the resolution, namely, "that the states are parties to the Constitution or compact," is, in the judgment of the committee, equally free from objection.
If the powers granted, be valid, it is solely because they are granted: and, if the granted powers are valid, because granted, all other powers not granted, must not be valid.
The states, then, being the parties to the constitutional compact, and in their sovereign capacity, it follows of necessity, that there can be no tribunal above their authority, to decide in the last resort, whether the compact made by them be violated; Madison
The entire South said it was and that trumps your 'slightly' biased opinion any day.
The South seceded illegally.
The South legally seceded, your 'slightly' biased 'opinion' be damned.
The South rebelled.
The South, a sovereign nation, was illegally invaded by a hostile neighbor and defended their territory and homes.
In your dreams.
Looks like broad daylight out there to me. Try pulling your head out of your ass and take a look around.
"The compound government of the United States is without a model, and to be explained by itself, not by similitudes or analogies,"--- James Madison
Sayeth one of the most factually challenged members of the Lost Cause brigade.
If all members of the compact are equal then no one member has any greater say than the others. So how can some members declare the compact broken when the others say it is not? What makes some members right when they say, "You broke the agreement" and other members wrong when they say, "No we didn't?" Your Orwellian view of the union doesn't jibe with anything Madison ever said, or any other founder that I'm aware of.
The entire rest of the country said it wasn't. Why are they wrong and the South right? Other than because you say they are?
The South legally seceded, your 'slightly' biased 'opinion' be damned.
The South illegally seceded, your ill-informed, valueless opinions to the contrary notwithstanding.
The South, a sovereign nation, was illegally invaded by a hostile neighbor and defended their territory and homes.
The South was not a sovereign nation but merely a rebellous section of the U.S. who turned to armed conflict to further their aims. And paid a high price for their folly.
Looks like broad daylight out there to me. Try pulling your head out of your ass and take a look around.
How would you know if it was night or day, given you head is so firmly planted in yours?
And we're supposed to take your completely biased interpretation instead? Please......
You're not going to drag out Texas v White again, are you? Haven't you had your ass handed to you enough over that one?
Oh you mean your lame whining that the court was biased? If that is what you call ass-handing then you're even more ridiculous that I'd long believed.
No property was stolen. Period.
The generally accepted definition of 'stealing' is taking something which does not belong to you without paying for it. The Southern actions were most certainly stealing.
You know, I know and everybody else knows that Linkln and the yankees would never, ever have agreed to anything.
Paranoid delusions on your part aside, Lincoln wasn't inaugurated until months after the South started seceding. Why didn't the work out an agreement with Buchanan and the Democratic congress before they left? Answer: because they weren't interested in a peaceful partition. They wanted bitterness and acrimony. And war. They got all three.
This is your shell game. It's like asking the question, 'have you stopped beating your wife'. Why don't you try being honest about the situation for once in your miserable life.
What would someone like you know about honesty?
Here's some irrefutable facts for ya:
If you hold true to form there won't be a fact in the bunch.
Secession was/is not illegal. Secession without the consent of the states is/was.
The South legally seceded. The South illegally seceded.
The South sought a peaceful treaty with the yankees. The South send minions with ultimatums. Hardly a peaceful act.
Linkln did not want peace. War was always the goal of the Davis regime. Lincoln just gave them more than they had expected.
Linkln illegally invaded a sovereign country. ROTFLMAO. That's like saying the Allies illegally invaded Nazi Germany when they crossed the border, or Imperial Japan when they took Iwo Jima. You start a war, you pay the consequences. And some of the consequences may be having your enemy armies in your backyard if you're incapable of doing anything to stop them.
The north has revised history to cover up it's illegal, immoral and dishonorable actions ever since. The South has spun myth after myth, fairy tale after fairy tale to justify their actions and explain why they got their ass kicked.
This coming from the most dishonorable person on FR and, perhaps, the entire interwebz.
I can't hold a candle to you in the dishonorable department.
"You are entitled to your own opinon but you're not entitled to your own facts." Daniel Patrick Moynahan.
Why were they right and the South wrong? Does might make right?
The South illegally seceded, your ill-informed, valueless opinions to the contrary notwithstanding.
Not opinion. Fact. You are the one posting uninformed, revisionist opinions.
The South was not a sovereign nation but merely a rebellous section of the U.S.
That is simply not true and you have no supporting evidence. (Revisionism and lies don't count.)
who turned to armed conflict to further their aims.
You're speaking of the damnyankees, of course.
And paid a high price for their folly.
And now we're all paying a high price for the north's greed and aggression.
How would you know if it was night or day, given you head is so firmly planted in yours?
I'm surprised you didn't post your favorite self portrait.
Free Dixie!
It would seem thateither negotiations or a third party like the judiciary was needed to determine the issue. Why didn't the South resort to that?
Not opinion. Fact. You are the one posting uninformed, revisionist opinions.
I'm posting an actual Supreme Court decision. You're posting lame opinion masquerading as fact.
That is simply not true and you have no supporting evidence.
Where evidence is lacking is the idea that the South was ever a sovereign nation. No other nation on Earth recognized them as such. They were a nation in their own mind and nowhere else.
You're speaking of the damnyankees, of course.
No, I'm speaking of the loony rebs. Of course.
And now we're all paying a high price for the north's greed and aggression.
Yeah. Five Southern presidents and countless Southern senators and congressmen in my lifetime have done more to screw this country up than anything Lincoln ever did. Haven't you gotten your revenge for Sherman yet?
I'm surprised you didn't post your favorite self portrait.
I've never posted a self-portrait. I have some that resemble you and one that apparently shows Idabilly's fantasy but that's about it.
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