President Bush is Pro-Life in Name Only

"There is no stomach in either party for putting the country through a constitutional crisis,"

Sinkspur, BOTH parties HAVE allowed the country to suffer through the very CONSTITUTIONAL CRISIS that is Roe v Wade.

I suspected that your point would be raised, but how few Pro-Life and Christian leaders ever cite the bloody fact that Roe v Wade is a far greater Constitutional crisis and the precedent that it set is a greater threat to the survival of the Republic than even Dred Scott.

We've butchered more children in our "Christian" nation than Hitler did in all Europe. We're IN a Constituional crisis and have been for 32 years, when will we open our eyes to see it?

But somehow that's not how you meant it.

Your arguments are valid, to me. But, the vast majority of Americans will simply not tolerate a President who defies the judicial branch of the United States.

To cut off one's nose to spite one's face is never smart.

We've butchered more children in our "Christian" nation than Hitler did in all Europe. We're IN a Constituional crisis and have been for 32 years,

He meant it in a "normalist" sense - that is, the current situation is not abnormal. when will we open our eyes to see it?

We'll open our collective eyes when we SHOW the world what an abortion really is. Most people have no clue and get sucked (no pun intended, honestly) into the blythe notion of personal freedom - "why would anyone be against choice? Of Course a woman should have a right to choose!" Choose what? Answering that question is our job.

Then we build even greater popular support and show through numbers that people want this unspeakable injustice righted, finally and irrevokably.

Understand that, in the process, some who will in the future share our convictions because of this work will not like us in the short term - because of their smitten consciences and because change itself is a process.

"Sir, people like you are never satisfied.

There is only so much one president can do. We have a ban on partial birth abortions, which is more than Reagan did."

The ban is "unconstitutional" according to the rogue courts that Bush could correct. I never said he could end ALL abortions but he could make a tremendous difference beyond what he has. The article explains that SCOTUS is NOT Supreme over POTUS, he can check the courts but has not.

He said sometime back that the nation was not ready to overturn Roe--or words to that effect, and here is where truly great leadership is required. Act on what you know is right even if it costs you everything. I know Bush is a Christian and I suppose I am asking him to have a heroically virtuous level of self-sacrifice that Saints are made from.

It's NOT about "me" or "people like me" it's about the fact that the greatest nation in the history of the world has been thrust into a bloodthirsty CULTure of death. 4,000 babies will die tomorrow and very few people notice, most are quite fine with it all.

If it does not end with Bush, I suspect it never will. The second footnote in the article provides for much less dramatic corrective measures. It requires a simple majority in both houses and Presidential signature to become law. And so there is a "window" of opportunity for this to be passed. Bush has the opportunity to become a legend on par with Lincoln if he can champion this simple majority bill through.

I worked very hard to get him into office both times and I have every right to hold him accountable, as a Christian I have an obligation to hold him accountable.

Fair enough.

Sorry for being such a jerk, I just hear people complaining all the time, and it gets old.

they did act accordingly, ha ha, and didn't pull the thread and put in the bloggers section.

Appropriate public response. I have no idea whether they communicated further with the poster, but I hope they did.

I hope you notice that I did not call for a 'Zot!' on the poster -- just a correction of the practice of spamming on FR. I don't like spam any more here than I do in my e-mail -- do you?

I don't plan to do this often, but I will not tolerate spamming -- here or elsewhere.

just a correction of the practice of spamming on FR

spamming? websites, vanities and blogs are posted on the FR daily many times. Cpforlife can't show his work? are you for real? Hey, let's see your website.

In NJ we know how to take care of squealers.

we don't tolerate squealers and tattle tales.

here or elsewhere >>>

where else do you annoy people?

"The President is the one and only person, who can on his authority stay Roe v Wade."

Wrong, he can't.

"Sinkspur, BOTH parties HAVE allowed the country to suffer through the very CONSTITUTIONAL CRISIS that is Roe v Wade."

This is not a constitutional crisis, this is a moral crisis.

In a moral nation, legal abortion would not be an issue because moral people would not have abortions.

"The president can, under his Constitutional authority refuse to enforce an unconstitutional opinion from the U.S. Supreme Court and all inferior federal courts."

Can you show me where in the US Constitution, the office of the President is given oversight over the findings of the Judicial branch of the government?

Have you ever stopped to actually contemplate what you advocate?... "That doesn't sound appealing? Then stop trying to force a bunch of women who are unwilling or unable to care for their children to have them." So, your solution is the protection of a speciously appointed right to serial killing, to relieve men and women from the responsibilities of their sexual activities? You have a typically democrat perspective on the issue of killing for the convenience of those who desire license. Sad really, that an apparently adult American is so blatant in support of serialized killing of alive human beings in order to achieve the 'enlightened society' of secularization. What is the human species coming to? Ghastly arrogance on your part, rommy, to advocate the wholesale killing and imply we of the pro-life crowd don't do anything for the babies born into this nation under less thanyour ideal conditions. [By the way, fool, you're being addressed by one who does do something about this tragedy and who has a little one living and blessing his home who would have been your candidate for extermination. You have rancid egg on your smarmy face.]

"No law will stop one single abortion. Anyone who wants one will always go where it is available." So immature of you ... sounds so very like the 'I want the right to any drugs and any behavior that pleases me' crowd. That which is deemed 'legal', as opposed to illegal, gains acceptance, even if it is deadly wrong as is the serial killing of alive unborn children. Congrats, you've extracted your metal from the rational discussion.

Please, do explain.

The article did just that, but you have to read it.

Also try

THE IRREPRESSIBLE MYTH OF MARBURY
It's a PDF

I want you to show me where in the Constitution, the Executive branch gets oversight of the Judicial branch, and where the executive branch would get tge Constitutional power to determine the Constitutionality of the findings of the US Supreme Court.

I read the article and it doesn't include the answer.

ProLife Ping!

If anyone wants on or off my ProLife Ping List, please notify me here or by freepmail.

"Nothing in the text of the Constitution supports a claim of judicial supremacy. The courts possess "[t]he judicial Power of the United States" and that power extends to "Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution," but nothing in the logic or language of such a statement of constitutionally authorized judicial jurisdiction implies judicial supremacy over the other branches of government. Jurisdiction to decide cases does not entail special guardianship over the Constitution. (If anyone could lay claim to the title of Special Trustee or Lord Protector of the Constitution, it would be the President, for whom the Constitution prescribes a unique oath that he will, "to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States.")"

Judicial findings by the US Supreme Court come about as a result of cases brought before it, in which case, its findings are constitutionally grounded...the power of the Court lies in the fact that it grants the ultimate power to the people, by giving the people a place to challenge the constitutionality of laws.

The Executive branch has no judicial power, and while the President is charged with "protecting" the Constitution, that protection can't amount to dictatorial power over the people, and their Court system.

President Bush is Pro-Life in Name Only

With all due respect, have you lost your bloody mind?

First, aren't you trying to have it both ways? You say the only thing that will end abortion is to adopt your educational reforms because the current electorate will never let go of Roe vs. Wade, then you expect the President to accomplsh what you say is impossible.

Second, check the list below--our enemies at PP compiled it, and they know Dubya's not fooling around. Reason number one that libs are so threatened by the President's faith is that they know what it means in the area of abortion, and they are scared witless.

REDUCING ACCESS TO FAMILY PLANNING

Anti-choice governor Tommy Thompson selected as Secretary of Health and Human Services (December 29, 2000).
On his first day in office, the 28th anniversary of Roe v. Wade, the president restores the Reagan-era global gag rule on international family planning assistance (January 22, 2001).
The president closes the White House Office for Women's Initiatives and Outreach (March 29, 2001).
Contraceptive coverage for federal employees striped by the president from his first federal budget (April 9, 2001).
The president floats possibility of nominating John Klink - an ardent opponent of birth control and spokesperson for the Vatican in it's opposition to condom use - to oversee the U.S. Global population program (May 23, 2001).
"Abstinence-only" proponent Patricia Funderburk Ware named the head the Presidential Advisory Council on HIV/AIDS (PACHA) (November 30, 2001).
House passes the "Child Custody Protection Act," which would make it a federal crime to transport a minor across state lines for an abortion unless the parental involvement requirements of her home state have been met (April 17, 2002).
U.S. delegation to the U.N. Children's Summit, led by HHS Secretary Tommy Thompson, fights sexuality education and opposes condoms for HIV/AIDS prevention (May 2002).
Louise Oliver, former president of the pro-life Harvard Law School's Society for Law, Life, and Religion appointed special assistant to the U.S. State Department Bureau of Population, Refugees and Migration (July 2002).
The president withholds $34 million in funding for birth control, maternal and child care, and HIV/AIDS prevention from the United Nations Population Fund (UNFPA) (July 22, 2002).
House passes abortion ban legislation H.R. 4965 (July 24, 2002).
Announcement made by administration that approximately $900,000 available for financial assistance and applications for embryo "adoption" (July 25, 2002).
The U.S. Department of Justice does an about-face and withdraws support for women's rights treaty, maintaining U.S. as only industrialized nation not to ratify the Convention on Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women (CEDAW) (July 26, 2002).
Anti-condom "abstinence-only" proponent Dr. Freda McKissic named to the CDC Advisory Committee on HIV and STD Prevention (September 6, 2002).
House passes the so-called "Abortion Non-Discrimination Act" (ANDA), a sweeping refusal clause that allows any health care entity to discriminate against any provider who provides or even gives information about abortion (September 25, 2002).
U.S. State Department freezes $3 million in funding to the World Health Organization (WHO) in response to anti-choice objections to the WHO's Human Reproduction Program (October 2002).
HHS Web sites remove medically accurate information about condom effectiveness and the lack of a proven link between abortion and breast cancer (October 2002).
HHS Secretary's Advisory Committee on Human Research Protection Charter gives embryos new status as "human subjects" (October 2002).
"Abstinence-only" proponent Dr. Alma Golden named to oversee Title X, nation's family planning program (October 7, 2002).
Family Planning foe Chris Smith calls on USAID to exclude reproductive health organizations in developing countries from receiving HIV/AIDS funding, thus extending global gag rule (October 24, 2002).
U.S. delegation to U.N. regional meeting reverses U.S. position in support of 1994 global agreement affirming the right of all couples and individuals to determine freely and responsibly the number and spacing of their children, and to have the information and means to do so (United Nations, 1994) (November 2, 2002).
Anti-choice and religious extremist doctors opposed to contraception, mifepristone, and reproductive rights appointed to the Reproductive Health Drugs Advisory Committee of the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) (December 24, 2002).
The president's FY 2004 budget fails family planning programs and denies women access to abortion services (February 3, 2003).
Politics trumps women's health, Senate passes S.3 abortion ban (March 13, 2003).
Senate and House defeat Department of Defense (DOD) amendments that would have allowed access to abortion for women in the military who use their own funds (May 22, 2003).
Abortion ban, H.R. 760, passes the House of Representatives (June 4, 2003).
State Department denies funds for refugee AIDS prevention (August 1, 2003).
The president extends global gag rule to all international family planning programs (August 29, 2003).
Abortion ban, S.3, is sent to conference with the House of Representatives (September 17, 2003).
Congress passes S.3, dangerous ban on abortion, endangering women's lives for political gain (October 22, 2003).
The president signs abortion ban, the first federal legislation since Roe v. Wade to criminalize abortion, imperiling women's health (November 5, 2003).
Budget released for FY 2005 funds "abstinence-only" sex education and marriage initiatives, freezes funding for Title X family planning services (February 2, 2004).
FY 2005 budget pours money into discriminatory "Healthy Marriage" initiative (February 2, 2004).
FDA bows to political pressure and delays making decision on converting emergency contraception to over-the-counter status (February 13, 2004).
U.S. Delegation to Economic Commission of Latin America and the Caribbean stands alone in refusing to join a declaration reaffirming the Cairo consensus on population development because it objects to the use of phrases like "reproductive rights," "reproductive health," and families "in all their various forms" (March 11, 2004).
July 16, 2004 — Bush administration withholds funding for UNFPA, the United Nations Population Fund for third year in a row (July 16, 2004).
Congress denies funding for military women seeking abortion after rape or incest, strips bipartisan Boxer-Snowe amendment from Department of Defense Authorization Bill. (October 7, 2004).

BUILDING THE PLATFORM TO OUTLAW ABORTION

Extreme anti-choice zealot John Ashcroft proposed for U.S. attorney general (December. 22, 2000).
Anti-Choice governor Tommy Thompson selected as Secretary of Health and Human Services (December 29, 2000).
Chris Smith (R-NJ), U.S. House of Representatives' most ferocious opponent of international family planning programs, asked to address the annual "pro-life" march on behalf of the administration on the 28th anniversary of Roe v. Wade (January 22, 2001).
The president closes the White House Office for Women's Initiatives and Outreach (March 29, 2001).
House passes the so-called "Unborn Victims of Violence Act" (April 26, 2001).
The president floats possibility of nominating John Klink - an ardent opponent of birth control and spokesperson for the Vatican in its opposition to condom use - to oversee the U.S. global population program (May 23, 2001).
HHS Secretary Tommy Thompson announces new rules making fetuses, but not pregnant women, eligible for prenatal care in the Children's Health Insurance Program (CHIP) (March 5, 2002).
House passes the "Child Custody Protection Act" which would make it a federal crime to transport a minor across state lines for an abortion unless the parental involvement requirements of her home state have been met (April 17, 2002).
Louise Oliver, former president of the pro-life Harvard Law School's Society for Law, Life and Religion appointed special assistant to the U.S. State Department Bureau of Population, Refugees and Migration (July 2002).
House passes abortion ban legislation (July 24, 2002).
Announcement made by administration that approximately $900,000 available for financial assistance and applications for embryo "adoption" (July 25, 2002).
The U.S. Department of Justice does an about-face and withdraws support for women's rights treaty, maintaining U.S. as only industrialized nation not to ratify the Convention on Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women (CEDAW) (July 26, 2002).
House passes the so-called "Abortion Non-Discrimination Act" (ANDA), a sweeping refusal clause that allows any health care entity to discriminate against any provider who provides or even gives information about abortion (September 25, 2002).
HHS Web sites remove medically accurate information about condom effectiveness and the lack of a proven link between abortion and breast cancer (October 2002).
HHS Secretary's Advisory Committee on Human Research Protection Charter gives embryos new status as "human subjects" (October 2002).
House passes Bankruptcy Bill HR 333. without Freedom of Access to Clinics (FACE) provisions that would have prevented violent anti-choice protesters from avoiding debts by declaring bankruptcy (November 14, 2002).
U.S. delegation advances position that life begins at conception at population conference for the Asia and Pacific region (December 11-17, 2002).
The administration supports anti-choice Sen. Bill First (R-TN) to take the helm of the U.S. Senate after Trent Lott (R-MS) steps down (December 23, 2002).
Anti-choice and religious extremist doctors opposed to contraception, mifepristone, and reproductive rights appointed to the Reproductive Health Drugs Advisory Committee of the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) (December 24, 2002).
The Presidents FY 2004 budget fails family planning programs and denies women access to abortion services (February 3, 2003).
House passes ban on therapeutic cloning (February 28, 2003).
Politics trump women's health, Senate passes abortion ban, S.3 (March 13, 2003).
Senate and House defeat Department of Defense (DOD) amendments that would have allowed access to abortion for women in the military who use their own funds (May 22, 2003).
Abortion Ban H.R. 760 passes the House of Representatives (June 4, 2003)
Abortion ban, S.3, is sent to conference with the House of Representatives (September 17, 2003).
Congress passes S.3, dangerous ban on abortion, endangering women's lives for political gain (October 22, 2003).
The president signs abortion ban, the first federal legislation since Roe v. Wade to criminalize abortion, imperiling women's health (November 5, 2003).
Congress aims to suspend FDA approval of mifepristone and restrict access to medical abortion — a safe and medically established procedure (November 21, 2003).
House passes so-called "Unborn Victims of Violence Act" giving zygote, embryo, or fetus the same legal rights as a person and further undermining a woman's right to an abortion (February 26, 2004).
Federal District Judge Phyllis Hamilton Protects Patients' Privacy by Denying DOJ's Request for Planned Parenthood Medical Records in Course of Federal Abortion Ban Trial (March 5, 2004).
U.S. Delegation to Economic Commission of Latin America and the Caribbean stands alone in refusing to join a declaration reaffirming the Cairo consensus on population development because it objects to the use of phrases like "reproductive rights," "reproductive health," and families "in all their various forms" (March 11, 2004).
Federal judge in San Francisco strikes down federal abortion ban as unconstitutional; decision in Planned Parenthood Federation of America (PPFA) v. Ashcroft a victory for women's rights (June 1, 2004).
Justice Department Files appeal in Planned Parenthood Federation of America (PPFA) v. Ashcroft; Continues to pursue unconstitutional Abortion Ban (August 2, 2004).
Federal judge in New York strikes down unconstitutional federal abortion ban; ruling in National Abortion Federation (NAF) v. Ashcroft echoes June 1 decision in Planned Parenthood Federation of America (PPFA) v. Ashcroft (August 26, 2004).
Third federal court rules federal abortion ban is unconstitutional; decision in Carhart v. Ashcroft echoes rulings in San Francisco and New York (September 8, 2004).
Justice Department files appeal of Nebraska and New York Abortion Ban rulings; Continues to pursue unconstitutional law (September 27, 2004).

REDEFINING THE LEGAL STATUS OF THE FETUS

House passes "Unborn Victims of Violence Act" (April 26, 2001).
HHS Secretary Tommy Thompson announces new rules making fetuses, but not pregnant women, eligible for prenatal care in the Children's Health Insurance Program (CHIP) (March 5, 2002).
Announcement made by administration that approximately $900,000 available for financial assistance and applications for embryo "adoption" (July 25, 2002).
HHS Secretary's Advisory Committee on Human Research Protection Charter gives embryos new status as "human subjects" (October 2002).
House passes so-called "Unborn Victims of Violence Act" giving zygote, embryo, or fetus the same legal rights as a person and further undermining a woman's right to an abortion (February 26, 2004).
Federal District Judge Phyllis Hamilton Protects Patients' Privacy by Denying DOJ's Request for Planned Parenthood Medical Records in Course of Federal Abortion Ban Trial (March 5, 2004).
"Unborn Victims of Violence Act" passes Senate, grants fertilized egg legal status distinct from woman, posing threat to the foundations of Roe v. Wade (March 25, 2004).
President signs so-called "Unborn Victims of Violence Act" into law, may help lay groundwork for future effort to reverse Roe v. Wade (April 1, 2004).

PACKING THE COURTS TO OVERTURN ROE

Anti-choice Texas Supreme Court Justice Priscilla Owens nominated to the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals (May 9, 2001).
Law Professor Michael McConnell, hardline opponent of Roe v. Wade who believes the U.S. Constitution does not protect women's right to choose, nominated to the 10th Circuit Court of Appeals (May 9, 2001).
Anti-choice District Court Judge Dennis Shedd, with a pattern of ruling against plaintiffs in civil rights cases, nominated to the 4th Circuit Court of Appeals (May 9, 2001).
Lavenski Smith, past executive director of the right-wing, anti-choice Rutherford Institute of Arkansas, nominated to the Eighth Circuit Court of Appeals (May 22, 2001).
Anti-choice extremist Judge Carolyn Kuhl nominated to the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals (May 25, 2001).
Anti choice Federal District Court Judge D. Brooks Smith, who held a long-standing membership in a private club that excludes women, nominated to the Third Circuit Court of Appeals (September 10, 2001).
Anti-Choice Federal District Court Judge Charles Pickering, Texas Supreme Court Justice Priscilla Owens, and Los Angeles Superior Court Judge Carolyn Kuhl, who had all been rejected by the Senate, re-nominated to Circuit Courts of Appeals ( January 7, 2003).
Miguel Estrada, who gave evasive responses when questioned by the Senate Judiciary Committee on reproductive rights, abandons his bid for appointment to the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia (September 4, 2003).
Anti-choice, anti-civil rights hardliner Federal District Court Judge Charles Pickering appointed during congressional recess (i.e., without Senate confirmation) to the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals (January 16, 2004).
Alabama Attorney General William Pryor, who describes Roe v. Wade as "an abomination," appointed to 11th Circuit Court of Appeals during congressional recess, (i.e., without Senate confirmation) (February 20, 2004).
Anti-choice extremist James Leon Holmes, former president of Arkansas Right to Life, appointed to U.S. District Court for Eastern District of Arkansas (July 6, 2004).

REPLACING SCIENCE WITH RIGHT-WING IDEOLOGY

The president floats possibility of nominating John Klink - an ardent opponent of birth control and spokesperson for the Vatican in its opposition to condom use - to oversee the U.S. global population program (May 23, 2001).
House passes the "Human Cloning Prohibition Act of 2001" (July 31, 2001).
The president prevents taxpayer funding for additional stem cells beyond existing stem cell lines, placing severe limits on stem cell research (August 9, 2001).
The president's FY2001 budget doubles education funding for dangerous "abstinence-only" programs (October 11, 2001).
"Abstinence-only" proponent Patricia Funderburk Ware named to head the Presidential Advisory Council on HIV/AIDS (PACHA) (November 30, 2001).
U.S. delegation to the U.N. Children's Summit, led by HHS Secretary Tommy Thompson, fights sexuality education and opposes condoms for HIV/AIDS prevention (May 2002).
U.S. Department of Education appoints Title IX commission that threatens athletic programs for girls and women. (June 6, 2002).
The president withholds $34 million in funding for birth control, maternal and child care and HIV/AIDS prevention from the United Nations Population Fund (UNFPA) (July 22, 2002).
The president withholds more then $200 million in funding for programs to support women and address HIV/AIDS in Afghanistan (August 2, 2002).
Anti-condom "abstinence-only" proponent Dr. Freda McKissic named to the CDC Advisory Committee on HIV and STD Prevention (September 6, 2002).
HHS Web sites remove medically accurate information about condom effectiveness and the lack of a proven link between abortion and breast cancer (October 2002).
"Abstinence-only" proponent Dr. Alma Golden named to oversee Title X, nation's family planning program (October 7, 2002).
The National Cancer Institute (NCI) Web site posts a "revised" fact sheet that suggests an unproved link between abortion and breast cancer (November 25, 2002).
House passes ban on therapeutic cloning (February 28, 2003).
State Department denies funds for refugee AIDS prevention (August 1, 2003).
Anti-choice hardliners resort to intimidation tactics to pressure NIH scientists to abandon research on AIDS, sexuality and high-risk behavior (October 28, 2003).
Budget released for FY 2005 funds "abstinence-only" sex education and marriage initiatives, freezes funding for Title X family planning services (February 2, 2004).
FDA bows to political pressure and delays making decision on converting emergency contraception to over-the-counter status (February 13, 2004).
FDA disregards recommendations of its own independent review board, and denies over-the-counter status to Barr Laboratories' Plan B® emergency contraception (May 6, 2004).
Constitutional Amendment banning same-sex marriage fails to garner necessary votes in House; follows defeat of amendment in Senate (October 1, 2004).

CENSORING FREE SPEECH

On his first day in office, the 28th anniversary of Roe v. Wade, the president restores the Reagan-era global gag rule on international family planning assistance ( January 22, 2001).
House passes the so-called "Abortion Non-Discrimination Act" (ANDA), a sweeping refusal clause that allows any health care entity to discriminate against any provider who provides or even gives information about abortion (September 25, 2002).
HHS Web sites remove medically accurate information about condom effectiveness and the lack of a proven link between abortion and breast cancer (October 2002).
U.S. delegation to U.N. regional meeting reverses U.S. position in support of 1994 global agreement affirming the right of all couples and individuals to determine freely and responsibiliy the number and spacing of their children and to have the information and means to do so (United Nations, 1994) (November 2, 2002).
The Center for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) Web site posts "revised" fact sheet downplaying condom effectiveness (December 2, 2002).
USAID directs USAID-funded programs to reflect the anti-choice policies of the Bush administration on their Web sites (January, 2003).
The president extends global gag rule to all international family planning programs (August 29, 2003).
Anti-choice hardliners resort to intimidation tactics to pressure NIH scientists to abandon research on AIDS, sexuality, and high-risk behavior (October 28, 2003).
U.S. Delegation to Economic Commission of Latin America and the Caribbean stands alone in refusing to join a declaration reaffirming the Cairo consensus on population development because it objects to the use of phrases like "reproductive rights," "reproductive health," and families "in all their various forms"

Education, my FRiend. Show the world what an abortion is. Start in the most heavily pro-abortion parts of the country, where ignorance is highest. These are typically the same parts of the country lecturing us about free speech, now aren't they?