Posted on 05/06/2003 10:09:33 AM PDT by MrLeRoy
After the long weekend I'm sort of lost on our conversation. Even after re-reading it. I think the wierdest statement you have made so far is to suggest that we can keep kids from selling drugs to each other by making drugs legal. Think about it. You also say that the only reason they sell it to each other is because it IS illegal and you also say that we would never make it legal for kids. You are talking yourself in circles and making no sense at all.
I'm glad to report they just put a meth dealer/maker here in Iowa away for 12 years though.
You claim (with no evidence) that alcohol does not have this effect; why not? If it's because alcohol is legal, then legal marijuana would also not be a gateway drug.
this is a side issue in which you try to derail the discusssion
False; YOU introduced the subject when you claimed that "pot smoking [...] is a gateway drug to harder, more addictive substances".
most of life's problems have no governmental solution
Of course that is true, but government should at least not be part of the problem.
When government stays out of an issue, as by not criminalizing a substance, it is not part of the problem---unless you want to claim that government is "part of the problem" of alcoholism because it doesn't ban alcohol.
society also has a right to set minimal standards of acceptable behavior for its citizens. You obviously disagree. Fine. I will put my Judeo-Christian society up against your value-less society
Straw man; a society where values are not enforced by government is not a "value-less society." For instance, society has traditionally frowned on lying even though there have never been laws against lying (with a few narrow exceptions, e.g., perjury).
I can't help but note your hypocritical statement of calling me a "bleeding-heart liberal" because I have concern for other citizens. Then, when you make your argument of why drugs should be legalized, your top 2 reasons concern the well-being of other citizens.
No hypocrisy there; the harms I call for ending are imposed BY OTHERS, whereas you are liberally blubbering about SELF-imposed harms.
Show me where. I'll retract it and apologize.
Not so fast. (Not that it matters, but your question followed your accusation.)
I'll answer it after you either back up or retract your accusation.
Again, where did I call you a liar (or imply as such)?
Quoting the Gipper, "There you go again". If you don't want to believe that alcohol's gateway effect is greatly diminished among those that don't start drinking until after the age of 16, FINE. DON'T BELIEVE IT. THAT STILL GETS YOU NOWHERE IN WANTING POT LEGALIZED. Again, try making your "pro-legalize-drugs" argument without the crutch of alcohol and cigarettes. This seems to be a most difficult task for you. Two of the biggest killers in this country are booze and cigs, right? They are legal, right? What is your solution? NOTHING. Just legalize all drugs. Wow. How thoughtful. What foresight. Now, you'll say, "Oh, legalizing drugs has nothing to do with booze and cigs". Again, FINE, then why do you keep bringing up booze and cigs? I'll tell you why. It's a way for you to change the argument to the evils of booze and cigs instead of drugs. Can you possibly keep on topic?
When government stays out of an issue, as by not criminalizing a substance, it is not part of the problem---
WRONG. See how many abortions were done before Roe vs. Wade and compare to current numbers.
society where values are not enforced by government is not a "value-less society." For instance, society has traditionally frowned on lying even though there have never been laws against lying (with a few narrow exceptions, e.g., perjury).
Your arguments are getting more silly as you are the one grasping for straws. A society without values is most certainly a value-less society. How much more basic can you get? You are turning logic and the understanding of simple words on their heads. No, I can't be sent to jail for telling you that the sun won't rise tomorrow, but lying is illegal in many more instances than your "few, narrow exceptions". Perhaps you would rather live in a society with fewer enforced values. Maybe all lying should be legal. When you fill your fuel tank with sugar water instead of gas, oh well, it's just a lie. When you buy perishibles that have already expired and you get sick from eating rotten food, oh well, it's just a lie. When you get your credit card statement and see you're being charged 30% interest, not 4%, oh well, it's a just a lie. When your cable company charges you double what they said they would, oh well, it's a just a lie. When the service station says your car needs $1000 worth of work when it really just needs the spark plugs changed, oh well, it's just another lie. As you said, society frowns upon lies, because they don't reflect our standard of values. I guess all lies should be legal, so no one is pushing their values down your throat. Even perjury should be allowed. Especially when it's about sex, right?
No hypocrisy there; the harms I call for ending are imposed BY OTHERS, whereas you are liberally blubbering about SELF-imposed harms
LOL. Don't you even read what you write? One of your main reasons to legalize drugs was so users would not kill themselves with dirty or over-potent drugs. Evidently you want some tidy little government bureacuracy to make sure all drugs are clean and pure for addicts. What shall we name this agency? How about "The Department of Homeland Dependency"? Maybe the "Drug Czar" could be replaced by a "Drug Kingpin" who would come into office and promise "clean, pure dope for everyone!" Maybe they can come up with some nifty advertising slogans. I mean they have to let the druggies know they're there, right? How about "USDHS GRADE A HASH. WE'VE GOT THE STASH IF YOU'VE GOT THE CASH". Or, "No more pain, with Uncle Sam's cocaine". Maybe they could have little shacks set up all over like drive-thru coffee huts or those shacks that pop up for a few days around the 4th of July to sell fireworks. Instead of free "punks" with your purchase to light your fireworks, you could get free needles and bongs with your drug buy. What a beautiful vision and plan you have for your country. LOL Yes, I'm convinced now. THAT'S the problem with this country. I can't buy pure, clean heroin from the government. Geeeeez.
I believe it no more or less than I believe your other unsupported claim, "Several studies have found that, if society can prevent an individual from using any of the gateway drugs until age 21, the chances are 93-7 that that person will not use illicit drugs OR use alcohol in a high-risk manner." So I ask you AGAIN the question you dodged last time: If the 'gateway' effects of alcohol and marijuana both disappear in adulthood, why should the latter be illegal while the former is legal?
Two of the biggest killers in this country are booze and cigs, right? They are legal, right? What is your solution? NOTHING.
That's correct---the harms people do to themselves are not mine to solve, especially not by governmental coercion.
Just legalize all drugs.
As the drugs alcohol and tobacco are already legal, yes.
When government stays out of an issue, as by not criminalizing a substance, it is not part of the problem---
WRONG. See how many abortions
Abortion violates a person's rights, whereas drug use does not.
society where values are not enforced by government is not a "value-less society."
A society without values is most certainly a value-less society.
A society where values are not enforced by government is not a society without values.
lying is illegal in many more instances than your "few, narrow exceptions". [...] When you fill your fuel tank with sugar water instead of gas
Commercial fraud is a form of lying that is and should be illegal---but that still leaves a whole world of lies that have always been against society's values but have never been criminalized, e.g., lying to one's fiancee about dating other people. This proves that a society where values are not enforced by government is not a "value-less society."
One of your main reasons to legalize drugs was so users would not kill themselves with dirty or over-potent drugs. Evidently you want some tidy little government bureacuracy to make sure all drugs are clean and pure for addicts.
Yes, fraud should be illegal in the drug market as in every other market.
What shall we name this agency?
How about the agency that currently performs this function for legal medicines: the FDA? Or we could give the job to the agency that currently performs this function for legal recreational drugs: the BATF.
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