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Why America lost the "Civil War"
http://calltodecision.com/Civil%20War.html ^ | October 30, 2002 | Nat G. Rudulph

Posted on 11/02/2002 11:20:01 AM PST by Aurelius

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Comment #241 Removed by Moderator

To: Dutch-Comfort; WhiskeyPapa
I have tried for a long time, without success, to find a source that would (or could) provide data from which we could determine just how much money flowed from the various states into the federal coffers and how much flowed in the opposite direction. What we do know though is that in the 1790's Hamilton arranged for federal assumption of debts incurred by the states to finance the Revolution (a far from insignificant portion of which was George Washington's expense account. The southern states had mostly repaid their debts, but their residents were forced to pony up, through taxation, the money to pay off the debts of the deadbeat Yankee states. The move of the Capitol from Philadelphia to the swamp now known as Washington D.C. was a concession to the southern politicians for this unjust extraction of funds from their constituents. Also, the whiskey excise was a further measure to finance the enrichment of the speculators (= friends of Hamilton) who had bought up at a fraction of its value the northern state's paper from the poor suckers who had originally extended credit to Washington's army. (There is more to that story, but that is for another time.) My point is, whatever may have happened between 1800 and 1860, initially it was the north which was the beneficiary and the south which was the victim of the unequal federal redistribution of wealth.
242 posted on 11/07/2002 4:53:23 PM PST by Aurelius
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Comment #243 Removed by Moderator

To: Dutch-Comfort
You will have to buy the book, which I linked (it is only $12.00; you can save $0.40, by joining B&R Readers Advantage, and you can probably buy it used at Amazon for even less, but I can't link to Amazon without revealing my identity - their loss) for all of the details - and, I do understand that this is all from authentic records. But here is a link that I found: Put It On Washington's Tab

To WhiskeyPapa, perhaps some fresh insight into your hero.

244 posted on 11/07/2002 5:33:38 PM PST by Aurelius
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To: Aurelius; Dutch-Comfort; WhiskyPapa
At Amazon the new price is $8.95; used copies apparently start at $3.95. I have had no bad experiences buying used books through Amazon.
245 posted on 11/07/2002 5:40:24 PM PST by Aurelius
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To: Aurelius; Dutch-Comfort; WhiskeyPapa
Some exerpts

Fortunately for posterity, a complete record of Washington's account exists. You can even look at scans of it, in entirety, online. The father of the United States, it seems, was magnificent at padding his accounts.

Take, for example, the entry on June 22, 1775:

To cash paid for Sadlery, a Letter Case, Maps, Glasses, &c &c &c. for the use of my Command... $831.45 Eight hundred dollars? Ten times what a private made for saddles? That must have been some pretty damn nice tackwork. £3, or about $81, went to the letter case, which was made of Russian leather. We're sure it kept his letters very dry. As for those "&c"s, they were probably worth a couple hundred each. Washington was a great fan of "&c" and "Ditto". There are innumerable "ditto"s in the account, most of which cost at least a hundred dollars. Other bits of finery are equally outlandish:

To sundry Exp.'s paid by myself at different times and places... on the Retreat of the Army thro' the Jerseys into Pennsylvania & while there... $3,776. Yes, George Washington charged thousands of dollars to retreat from the enemy. He also gave loans to his friends that were never repaid, he bought limes by the crateload (400 at one point), and he treated himself to every "sundry" good available. From July 21-22 1775, he bought a pig, an unreadable number of ducks, "1 dozen pigeons, veal, 1 dozen squash, 2 dozen eggs, hurtleberries, biscuit and a cork cask."[3] The Washington family diet for the month of August included chickens, oysters, whortleberries, pears, cucumbers, veal, mutton, bread, and milk. In October, they bought nearly 32 dozen eggs. Washington's taste for Madeira wine shows up with mindnumbing regularity: from September 1775 to March 1776, Washington spent over six thousand dollars on booze. He was careful enough to note a change in his wine supplier no less than three times.

Getting Fat for the Winter

To say the least, Washington was resplendent in gastronomic finery. Some of this business extended into the infamous 1777-78 winter spent in Valley Forge. That winter, some 9,000 troops lacked shoes or coats. Many sat next to the fires all night for want of blankets; starvation and sickness were rampant. Of course, Washington didn't have to suffer through all this. He was too busy chowing down on mutton and fowl. He also hired a band to play on his birthday (we speculate he took Monday off). However, it is important to note that, despite enjoying himself, he worked extremely hard to keep the army from dissolving entirely. The fledgling government owned sufficient supplies in Boston and Newport; they sat molding in warehouses due to problems in military distribution. Washington must have paced in disgust and thrown up his hands. He wrote to another General:

The Army, as usual, are without Pay; and a great part of the Soldiery without Shirts; and tho' the patience of them is equally thread bear, the States seem perfectly indifferent to their cries. Indeed, in an effort to keep his troops happy, the General staged a play. Of all the outlandish purchases he stiffed Congress with, however, this was the one uniquely singled out by his Puritanical superiors as being work of the devil: "Any person," Congress subsequently decreed, "holding an office under the United States, who shall attend a theatrical performance shall be dismissed from the service." Too bad that wasn't enforced when Lincoln was President.

A Weighty Problem

Fortunately, the Valley Forge winter eventually let up, and Washington was again free to indulge himself. He did so, without reservation, until July 1, 1783, some six months after the Peace of Paris had been signed in early February. In those eight long years of belt-tightening war, Washington himself had put on nearly thirty pounds. All of his close cronies, who dined with him frequently, weighed over 200 pounds each; General Henry Knox won the fat man prize at 280. In comparison, Brigadier General Eben Huntington, not a close associate of Washington's, tipped the scales at 132 pounds dripping wet at war's end. When Washington's account was closed, though, he was not chastised for living extravagantly. The auditors accepted every claim, and we mean every claim. One entry for $20,800 read, "the accounts were not only irregularly kept, but many of them were lost or mislaid, & some of them so defaced as not to be legible, that it is impossible for me to make out a statement of them." Put simply, George lost the receipts. Or maybe he never had them. Did Congress blink? Of course not. Instead, they lauded for his exacting arithmetic, and gratefully signed over the requested amounts.

So, in the end, how much did Washington spend over his eight years of service?

$449,261.51, in 1780 dollars.

Taking into account 220 years of inflation that'd be worth over $4,250,000.00 today.Four million dollars' worth of "expenses", and, after going over the account with a fine-toothed comb (at one point he was corrected for undercounting 89/90 of a dollar), Congress approved the lot of it.

246 posted on 11/07/2002 5:56:04 PM PST by Aurelius
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To: Aurelius; Dutch-Comfort; WhiskyPapa
Put it on Washington's Tab

Parsimony may be ill-placed.
-George Washington

It was June 16, 1775, and American statesman George Washington was feeling magnanimous. Or, at least, that's what he wanted everyone to think. Washington had just been appointed general of the Continental Army over the soaring hopes of John Hancock, and, in order to not look too pleased with himself, America's future first president declined fiscal remuneration for his services. Well, almost. He said:

Sir, I beg leave to assure the Congress that as no pecuniary consideration could have tempted me to have accepted this arduous employment, I do not wish to make any profit from it. I will keep an exact account of my expenses. Those I doubt not they will discharge, and that is all I desire.

"Expenses", eh? Latter-day patriots, infused with nationalistic fervor, might assume this meant Washington would only take the barest hint of sustenance for his labors. As Commander-in-Chief of the Continental Army, Washington might expect a comfortable salary. For a little perspective, the very day Washington accepted his commission, Congress drew up the pay for officers and privates. A private made $6 2/3 a month, a captain $20, and a major general $166. Seems to us Washington was giving up a decent sum in exchange for this promise of discharging these expenses. He was well-regarded for stonily taking this economic hit for the tea

247 posted on 11/07/2002 6:48:15 PM PST by Aurelius
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To: Aurelius
An inflation factor merely of 10? Inflation by a factor of 10 probably occurred just between the period prior to WWII and the present. The value of a dollar being halved from the begining of WWII to its end and reduced after the end of the war to the present to 20% of its original (in 1946) value.
248 posted on 11/07/2002 7:06:17 PM PST by Aurelius
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Comment #249 Removed by Moderator

To: Aurelius
"There were (and still are) more differences between Yankees and Southerners than between Yankees and English-speaking Canadians. "

Last time I was in Dixie, I saw McDonalds and burger King, and the last time I was in Canada I saw Kentcky Fried Chicken made the Colonel's way.

It seems to me that we really aren't that different.

Signed, a Northerner that likes grits
250 posted on 11/07/2002 7:57:00 PM PST by uncbuck
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To: docmcb
"If Cleburne's plan to intergrate blacks into the Rebel ranks in large numbers had been accepted when it was made instead of a year later, too late to matter, the CSA probably would have won. "

Come on folks, it was northern industry that ultimately defeated the confederacy, not troop numbers.

Not that black troops wouldn't have prolonged the war though.
251 posted on 11/07/2002 8:09:37 PM PST by uncbuck
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To: uncbuck
No way ever to know, of course, but USA had a jillion times more industry than VietNam. Will to keep fighting is the key. Hard to say how close the North was to giving up, but Lincoln thought for a while that he wouldn't be reelected in1864.
252 posted on 11/07/2002 9:45:45 PM PST by docmcb
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To: uncbuck
Do you want a Canadian sryle Health Plan for the US?
253 posted on 11/07/2002 9:48:05 PM PST by Aurelius
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To: uncbuck
It seems to me that we really aren't that different.

Of course not. These neo-rebs are nuts. And they are a hateful small bunch too. It makes them feel big to make others feel small.

Walt

254 posted on 11/08/2002 1:00:44 AM PST by WhiskeyPapa
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To: Aurelius
$449,261.51, in 1780 dollars.

I heard it was more than that.

Still makes you wonder how he got on the great seal of the so-called CSA, doesn't it?

It's beyond absurd for you to be insulting George Washington. If anybody ever gave you any credence, you've surely p@ssed it away by belittling GW. But you are feeling a bit desperate, so it's understandable, I guess.

And you are applying a modern day judgment to an historical person -- always a slippery slope. He was a slave holder, remember? All slave holders are immune from criticism. That's the FR rule.

Walt

255 posted on 11/08/2002 2:54:01 AM PST by WhiskeyPapa
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To: docmcb
True about Vietnam, but the Russkies and China did and still do have quite the industrial capabilities. I've also read that when Nixon decided to actually bomb Hanoi, Ho Chi Mihn was thinking of a truce.
One other thing, the USA did not lose in 'Nam, There is a McDonalds serving Coca-Cola in Hanoi. There isn't a better symbol of AMERICAN CAPITALISM than that!
256 posted on 11/08/2002 7:38:29 AM PST by uncbuck
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To: Aurelius
Hell no, but thought I'd just point out that Canadiens and Southerners are'nt that different.
257 posted on 11/08/2002 7:40:14 AM PST by uncbuck
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To: Aurelius
Put it on Washington's Tab

I happen to be put into a position once at the Philadelphia 1st City Troop, the oldest still active unit in the US army, to look at some of the objects they have in their archives.
Two peices have a small relevance to your discussion.
The first was an invitation from Washington to the members of the troop, all of whom were of Philadelphia's 'Blue Bloods', to dinner at the City Tavern.
The second was a bill for the meal. The exact dollar amount I don't quite recall, but for comparisons sake, lets say it was for $375.00.
$75.00 of that was for food, and the other $300 was for broken crockery!

If any of ya'll are familiar with the book on edicate Washington wrote, this might be even more humorous.
258 posted on 11/08/2002 7:59:43 AM PST by uncbuck
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To: WhiskeyPapa
"Still makes you wonder how he got on the great seal of the so-called CSA, doesn't it?"

"It's beyond absurd for you to be insulting George Washington. If anybody ever gave you any credence, you've surely p@ssed it away by belittling GW. But you are feeling a bit desperate, so it's understandable, I guess."

Your thought precesses (and I believe I am being kind in using that characterization) completely baffle me. Why do you keep obsessing on the fact that George Washinton's picture was on the great seal of the Confederacy. What is the relevance that you see in that? It completely escapes me. I don't have a clue.

Your other theme, that by calling attention to historically recorded facts about George Washington I am insulting and belittling him and damaging my credibility - not in my view in the minds of anyone whose escalator goes to the top floor, or who has any credibility themselves (either of which would explicitely exclude you, I might point out).

259 posted on 11/08/2002 12:03:07 PM PST by Aurelius
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To: Aurelius
"It's beyond absurd for you to be insulting George Washington. If anybody ever gave you any credence, you've surely p@ssed it away by belittling GW. But you are feeling a bit desperate, so it's understandable, I guess."

Your thought precesses (and I believe I am being kind in using that characterization) completely baffle me. Why do you keep obsessing on the fact that George Washinton's picture was on the great seal of the Confederacy.

They must have been as big or bigger bums as he was, right?

Walt

260 posted on 11/08/2002 12:06:27 PM PST by WhiskeyPapa
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