Posted on 05/22/2006 8:14:10 AM PDT by RightWingAtheist
All Christianity believes that righteousness only comes through Jesus. Which is really the only substantial claim that I've made in this thread. That's not a personal interpretation.
I entered the thread after post 812 where SaveUS attacked scripture for calling Lot righteous.
"I entered the thread after post 812 where SaveUS attacked scripture for calling Lot righteous."
Believe what you want. Knocking up your daughters after a night of drunkeness doesn't qualify as righteous. And that goes for many more things people use as an excuse to do themselves.
Of course that act doesn't qualify as righteous. But trusting God and being forgiven by Him trumps that act hands down and does qualify as righteous.
Scripture says that "none are righteous", that "all have fallen short of the glory of God". But it also says this.
Isaiah 1:18 - Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
You stated, "All Christianity believes that righteousness only comes through Jesus"....yes, this is true...however, on these threads, that is never enough for many other posters...they claim that one cannot actually find righteousness through Jesus, so long as they support evolution....people are being condemned to Hell, because they support evolution, in spite of also witnessing to a personal relationship with Jesus.....
For some, ones whole notion concerning evolution/creation is the benchmark by whether they can even be a true Christian...belief in Christ, a personal relationship with Christ is never enough for some people...one must also do away with all support for evolution, in order to satisfy some...
I've been on a lot of crevo threads, and I've not seen anyone say a person isn't saved or isn't a true Christian because they believe in evolution. I don't doubt you, I believe that's bound to happen sometime. But I don't think it's common.
I certainly don't believe that a person is unsaved because they believe in evolution. I think they are wrong. But a person can be wrong about a great many things and still be saved.
In SaveUS and DonH's case, they appear to be rejecting all of scripture.
I can assure you, what I have said has happened, has indeed happened...Now, I cannot go back, and find out where it has happened, and who said what, and who condemned who, but it has happened...and its probably happened, more often than you think...its common enough, I assure you...
Some people do reject all Scripture...they are called atheists...some reject the Christian Scriptures as being holy and sacred...they could be called Buddhists, or Hinuds...people reject all Scriptures for many differing reasons...by the way, I have been called an atheist, simply because I support evolution..I have also been called an atheist, a communist, a nazi, a facist, a homosexual, and whatever else a supposed 'Christian', can think up, simply because I may support evolution...
Some folks are so insecure in their own beliefs about God and Christ, that they think it bolsters their already weak faith, if they can call others these names...
There really isn't any diffrence between a Muslim religious bully and a Christian religious bully.
Both are after worldly power.
I have met several Christian religious bullies in real life...what they have seemed to be after, is gaining more adherents to their own peculiar view of the Bible, in an effort to firm up their, what I consider, own weak faith...
Heck, their attitude seems to be, if I can convert so and so to my way of thinking, I must be right...
And indeed, the more people you can convert, the more power you think you can gain...I have seen that in action..
I agree the name calling is terrible on crevo threads. You wouldn't believe the stuff I've been called for being a creationist. But I just let it roll off my back.
Well, then there is fault on both sides...
I generally dont respond to those who call names...
But when someone claims to be such a fine Christian person, and then immediately calls names, well those two things just dont jive together....
There can be civil discussion, and yet that so often seems to be elusive...
Yes clearly there is fault on both sides.
There are immature Christians. Remember that Jesus called two of his disciples the sons of thunder because they got mad and wanted to call down hailfire on a town.
Yes, indeed, there may very well be immature Christians...however, they ought to be silent, rather than reveal their immaturity for all to see...it does no good for any religious faith, it makes them look particularly foolish, and this behavior certainly does not attract potential believers...
As a matter of fact, immature Christians, blathering about, speaking foolishness and nonsense, and applying condemnations all around, do more harm than any possible good...
There are some that I agree with you should be silent. However, there are others, that are learning how to discuss religious concepts rationally, and how to respond to attacks on scripture and on Christians. And how to keep their emotions in check under fire. And that's part of the maturation process.
At some point you have to get in the ring. And it can be a little messy. Not many churches really train believers in how to debate skeptics in public forums.
I do suppose you are right...everyone has to get in the ring at one time or another...but they should be fully conscious of the fact, that acting like a jerk, and calling people names, is not the thing to do...
I must say, the Mormons, always send their new missionaries out to my house...they know I do not support Mormon beliefs, however, I am always polite, and never rude, and ask questions, hard questions...and these Mormons, in general are very civil, and polite in turn...and yet they are newly going out into the world, to spread their word...
Perhaps some of the immature Christians on these threads could take a clue from others from different religions, who tho immature and inexperienced in evangelizing, yet still maintain decorum and civility...not at all what I see on these crevo threads, with supposed Christians, acting like they are in a street brawl, calling people foul things, and condemning to hell, all those who do not agree with them...that kind of behavior is outrageous, and in my opinion, completely un-Christian...
A small sampling of christian genocides:
hundreds of thousands of witches burned at the stake
the moros of spain
any jews in the path of the 1st crusade
the gnostics
the templars
the anabaptists
The only thing the church lacked to stand toe to toe with Stalin was modern technologies of bureaucratic slaughter, and larger populations. There was no lack of will, as any visit to a museum of the Inquisition will confirm.
As a guide to morality that cannot be questioned, I think it has significant weakness. "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." for example, seems a great deal more like ignorant, harmful, gynophobic nonsense, than it does an unquestionable moral precept.
I agree with the part about not eating bats though. Ugh.
I'll bet it takes more than being a creationist--I'll bet there's a major component of being an argumentative pain in the rear involved.
It's not just witches, it's spiritists and occultists in general that are condemned to death by the Bible.
Lev 20:27 A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.
Deut 18:9 When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations. 10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch. 11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. 12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee. 13 Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.
The passage above records that the people Israel was taking the land from were full of these types and these spiritists had a nasty habit of burning their children alive, which has been confirmed by archeological digs. But it's not just because of the child sacrifices, according Lev 19:31to the following verse, is that consultation with spiritists will "defile" you.
The Bible records that the spirit world is real. Many spiritists are probably frauds but some have real power. Fallen angels are very intelligent, they probably know history well, and at least some have some ability to see into the future. If you consult with a fallen angel, they can be very convincing, but they will eventually lie to you. And they will eventually lead you into great evil.
Spiritism is behind many false religions.
Considering the great number of souls that have been lost as a result of communication with fallen angels, I don't think that the Bible condemning spiritists to death is ingorant nonsense. Man's implementation of the command probably was ignorant, harmful, gynophobic nonsense.
Exodus 22:18 (which is, incidently, where the Law goes from God's lips to Mose's ear) "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live"
there was no ambiguity about gender introduced by the King James translation of this verse. There were gendered words for both wizard and witch in both aramaic and greek, and there is ample evidence that everyone knew witches had more access to the spiritual miasma due to their irrational womanly ways, even back then.
And, by the way, your argument that they all must have eaten babies for dinner is a pretty long reach, even if you are preaching to the choir. As for your long-winded argument that spiritualism does, in fact, require the death penalty--I'd suggest that that's a heap more compelling for believers in The One True Religion, that rejects all others, than it is for the objective observer.
At any rate, this verse was a material cause of the witch mania, and supported the murder of witches by christians for about 1200 years, give or take a smidgen. To just smugly claim it was a mistake in interpretation, is to massively ignore the point that taking your unquestionable source of morality to be biblical verses is akin to deciding court cases by ouiji board--as demonstrated by the persistently re-occuring, systemic inability of the chrurch to behave morally toward certain members of it's community it should have been defending, instead of murdering.
2 Chronicles 33:6 - And he caused his children to pass through the fire in the valley of the son of Hinnom: also he observed times, and used enchantments, and used witchcraft, and dealt with a familiar spirit, and with wizards: he wrought much evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger.
Deuteronomy 18:10 - There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.
Leviticius 19:31 Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God.
I didn't say they ate babies for dinner, I said they sacrificed them in fires. And this is supported by archeological evidence.
"In the ancient Phoenician city of Carthage—part of the Canaanite culture—some 20,000 urns containing the remains of sacrificed children were found. The archaeologists at the site apprise us that "the Carthaginian Tophet is the largest of these Phoenician sites and indeed is the largest cemetery of sacrificed humans ever discovered. Child sacrifice took place there almost continuously for a period of nearly 600 years" (Lawrence Stager and Samuel Wolff, Biblical Archaeological Review, January-February 1984, p. 32)."
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.