Bush says Cold War captivity one of great wrongs

I think that numbers are different in different sources, because once there are only people deported in 39-41, in other sources those deported in 39-53, also sometimes they include only ethnic Poles, sometimes everyone who was a Polish citizen before 39.===

I think it could be former polish later soviet citizens from West Ukraine. BUT they didn't die as it claimed. After 1956 when Khruschev came to power most of them returned back. Not all. SO I saw some western ukranians in Sibiria.
Soviet Union didn't exiled non soviet citizens.
I never saw and heard germans from East Germany, poles, hungarians, chekhs.

BUT tell me honestly Greg after all we know now to say as m_68 that "700 thousand poles were kiled by russians and other 2 mlns sent to Sibiria" is distortion?

Figures produced by the Ministry of Justice in London in 1949 suggested that around 1 660 000 Polish soldiers and civilians were deported to the USSR (Stalin and the Poles, Ministry of Justice, London 1949). ==

"suggested" dear m_68 "suggested" but NOT claimed as you are! Don't you see difference?
I may suggest say you have mistress as much men for example but I'm NOT claim it. You see?

Ok. I'll talk rationally, that's not a problem.

BWAAAAAHHHHHAAAAA! "...treasonous Bed Wetters..." That's great!

We were making distinctions between active axis allies like those of Eastern Europe.

Now, no Russian provocateur is able to antagonize Poles and Ukrainians.

Sorry, but in the 1500s and upto 1610, it was Poland invading Russia. Poland took Moscow three times, massacring a lot of the citizens. Cossak rebellions had nothing to do with Russia and everything to do with oppression from the Polish nobility.

That's great! I didn't know Poland had ever taken Moscow!

I guess you really don't know any history what so ever, do you? Go read up on the Times of Troubles. Gads, man, you have some serious lackings in your knowledge.

We Poles murdered Ukrainians and they murdered Poles, because we were stupid and couldn't live on the common land.==

Did you read Hemric Senkevich novel "By flame and sword"?
Ukranians joined Russian voluntarily. Now they voluntarily exited.
Anyway they won't agree with you that those "common land" which you call Estern Poland is polish.

Now we are wiser and do not allow Moscow to rule our both countries.===

Moscow don't want it either. It was russians who disbanded USSR.
Today situation when everyone pays good money to Russia for oil and gas is very convinient for her.

You're thieves, Russians! As common as they come, and everybody knows this. Poles, Finns, Latvians, Lithuanians, Ukrainians, the Chinese, the japanese, all your neighbours hate you!!! ==

No you are wrong. Russians doesn't thives but conqeers as historical decendants of mongols.

Russian proverb: "Who came to us with sword die by sword".

Japan is in the state of war with you!!!!===

No With Japan it is indefinite truce now:). They signed soviet-japanese protocol about it.

here

Subsequently, Muscovy entered a period of continuous chaos. The Time of Troubles included a civil war in which a struggle over the throne was complicated by the machinations of rival boyar factions, the intervention of regional powers Poland and Sweden, and intense popular discontent. The first False Dmitriy and his Polish garrison were overthrown, and a boyar, Vasiliy Shuyskiy, was proclaimed tsar in 1606. In his attempt to retain the throne, Shuyskiy allied himself with the Swedes. A second False Dmitriy, allied with the Poles, appeared. In 1610 that heir apparent was proclaimed tsar, and the Poles occupied Moscow. The Polish presence led to a patriotic revival among the Russians, and a new army, financed by northern merchants and blessed by the Orthodox Church, drove the Poles out. In 1613 a new zemskiy sobor proclaimed the boyar Mikhail Romanov as tsar, beginning the 300-year reign of the Romanov family

1607 AD Crimean Tatars renew campaigns against Moscow now that Ottoman war in Poland has ended. Poland signs treaty with Great Nogai and Crimean Tatars against Moscow from south as he invades western Russia - Tsar Vasilii Shuiski busy with Bolotnikov rebellion.

1609 AD Battle on Zhabni river near Kalyhazin. Polish detachment defeats troops of M. Skopin-Shuiskii.

1609 AD Crimean Tatar campaign to Orlov in coordination with Polish army offensive. In June 40- 80,000 Tatars cross Oka at Serpukhov.

1610 AD Vasilii Shuiski deposed, Tatar attacks coincide with Polish siege of Kremlin, but they also oppose the 2nd False Dmitri's forces - Nogai attack Riazan.

Or here

1601 False Dmitry Appears

1601--The First False Dmitry. Ivan IV's youngest son, Dmitry, had died of an epileptic fit in 1591 when he was ten years old. However, some opponents to Godunov accused him of having the young Dmitry murdered for his own political gain.

In 1601, an ex-monk named Grishka (Hrycko) Otrepyev came forward claiming to be Dmitry Rurik; he said he had escaped Godunov's plot to kill him and declared himself the rightful heir to the throne.

The False Dmitry found support from Poland-Lithuania; the King Sigismund III refused to recognize him but several Polish-Lithuanian nobles backed him, namely George Mniszech, whose daughter Maryna he engaged. (See more on Sigismund III.)

However, his opponents claimed he would try to convert Russia from Orthodox to Roman Catholicism. In his marriage contract with Maryna Mniszech, he admits: "I have sworn myself, and given a vow according to the holy order: as also that I shall bring all the Russe people to the Latin Religion."

1604 False Dmitry Invades

1604 (October)--The False Dmitry Invades. In 1604, the False Dmitry had formed an army of supporters, with financial backing from Poland-Lithuania. He invaded Russia with his army of 6,000.

Some fortresses gave their allegiance to Dmitry; others used the chaos as an opportunity to rebel against Godunov. The tsar sent out his army, with Vasili* Shuiski as general.

(See gallery of Vasili Shuiski.)

1604 (December 21)--Battle of Novgorod. Dmitry's troops clashed with Russians at Novgorod. The troops fighting for Godunov were mainly composed of foreign mercenaries and soon surrendered to the pretender.

1605 (April 13)--Godunov Dies. Godunov was already in poor health before the conflict started. In 1605, in the middle of the chaos, he died. Once again, rumors of poisoning were batted about.

Dmitry gained support from the peasants and some of the boyars. Vasili Shuiski was out-spoken against him, pressing for Godunov's son Fyodor to take the throne; Shuiski even went as far as to have his uncle proclaim he had buried the true Dmitry himself.

However, Godunov had been an unpopular and tyrannical ruler, and thus his atrocities were blamed, more or less, on his son. Further, Dmitry and his invading army were growing closer. The army who had fought under Shuiski revolted and pledged their allegiance, in the name of the entire Russian army, to the False Dmitry.

1608 Second False Dmitry Appears

1608--Second False Dmitry. Perhaps the displeased supporters of Shuiski were on the look-out a new tsar; perhaps it was the inspiration of the success of the first False Dmitry. Whatever the case, a second man surfaced claiming to be the the same first False Dmitry, that he had evaded Shuiski's assassination.

The second False Dmitry had been resurrected almost solely by supporters of the first False Dmitry, mainly by some of Polish-Lithuanian nobility. Even though he "in no way (except that he was a man) resembled the first" [Zolkewski], Maryna Mniszech even declared it was her husband.

(See gallery of Maryna Mnizcech.)

He is often viewed as a pawn of foreign, mainly Polish interest, unlike the first False Dmitry who acted mainly of his own volition. Some Russian boyars, who wanted Shuiski gone, came to Poland-Lithuania to swear their allegiance to the new False Dmitry; among them was Ivan Zarutsky.

The second False Dmitry took Tushino; as his real name was never known, he became called "the Robber of Tushino." From there, he blockaded Moscow.

At this time, the Poland-Lithuania was having its own problems, with a rebellion against their king. (See more on the rebellion against Sigismund III.)

The same nobles who were revolting against King of Poland-Lithuania Sigismund III supported the second False Dmitry (namely Alexander Zborowski), and so Sigismund III was hoping to encourage his rebellious nobles to turn their attention from him and to politically-weak Russia. (See more on Zborowski.)

Further, boyars who were opposed to Vasili Shuiski again asked for Sigismund III to help depose their tsar and install his son Ladislaus on the Russian throne. This time, Sigismund III's advisors pressed him to act.

1608--Dmitry and Poles Invade Russia. The second False Dmitry and his Polish-Lithuanian supporters attempted to take the Russian throne, and this time King Sigismund III also invaded Russia.

1609 P-L Sieges Smolensk

Polish Occupation 1609-1618 1609--Poland-Lithuania Invades Russia. Tsar Vasili Shuiski was unpopular and weak in Russia. Sigismund III ordered troops to invade in 1609.

1609 (September 26)--Siege of Smolensk. The first target was the "key city" Smolensk that Russia had captured from Lithuania in 1514.

(See gallery of Smolensk.)

Grand Hetman Stanislaus Zolkiewski led 12,000 troops to Smolensk, which was manned by less than 1,000 Russian men. A previous tsar, Boris Godunov, had fortified the city with a massive fortress completed just in 1602.

(See gallery of Zolkiewski in the Military Commander gallery.)

The Poles found it impenetrable; they settled into a long siege, firing artillery into the city, attempting to tunnel under the moat, and building earthen ramparts, remnants of which can still be seen today.

"The guns could not make the necessary breach in the wall, there was no hope at all that the tunneling would have any effect, since the enemy was well-prepared against it; for it was already known, through one who had come over from the castle, that the enemy had set up listening-posts round the wall on the field side along the actual foundations under the earth, so that he was already safeguarded against that danger....[The King] advised rather, since we had such a large army, (for at about this time [reinforcements] had also arrived) that after ringing Smolensk with forts, we should make straight for the capital, to the head." [Zolkiewski].

Future Grand Field Hetman, Stanislaus Koniecpolski and his older brother fought at Smolensk. In 1610, the brothers were fighting side by side, when a wall collapsed during the siege and fell on the older Koniecpolski, killing him.

(See more pictures of Koniecpolski in the Military Commander gallery.)

The siege lasted 20 months, until June 1611.

More Polish-Lithuanian troops, with Cossack recruits, marched for Moscow. As the Poles-Lithuanians pressed in, however, many supporters of False Dmitry turned back to Shuisky, because of the ravages of the foreign army. Further, the Poles-Lithuanians were not unified, as some preferred to stay under Dmitry's rule than the Hetmans'.

1610 (July 4)--Battle of Klushino.* Russia, allied with Sweden, sent in 40,000 troops as reinforcements for Smolensk, but they were met by 5,000 Polish-Lithuanian soldiers and Hussars at Klushino. The mighty Polish Hussars defeated Russian and Swedish forces. (See more on Hussars.)

1610-1612 Polish Rule in Moscow

Zolkiewski came into conflict with King Sigismund III over the battle plans for taking Russia. Zolkiewski advocated for a peaceful and voluntary union, offering Russian boyars protected rights and religious freedom, envisioning an association much like that with Lithuania; to that end, Moscow should not touched, out of respect. Sigismund III, however, did not want to make political dealings but to take Moscow by force, establish his rule with might. Following the king's wishes, Zolkiewski marched on Moscow.

1610--Tsar Removed. The Polish-Lithuanian army, under Zolkiewski marched into Russia all the way to Moscow and forced Tsar Shuiski from the throne.

Zolkiewski was not without political skill and he began maneuvering for a Polish tsar, particularly the palatable 15-year old Prince Ladislaus* IV, the son of Sigismund III. Previously during the Time of Troubles, boyars had offered the throne to Ladislaus at least twice, in the hopes of having Poland-Lithuania end the despotic rule of their current tsars. Through the Zolkiweski's work, the boyars again said they would support Ladislaus for the throne, if he converted to Orthodox.

However, Poland-Lithuania protested the conversion and then the boyars drug their feet on supporting Ladislaus. Finally, they elected him, but he faced further opposition at home - Sigismund III wanted the Russian throne for himself. Ladislaus was never able to take real power.

(See gallery of Ladislaus IV.)

1610 (December)--Death of Second False Dmitry. The second False Dmitry was killed by supporters of Shuiski. Maryna Mniszech, though, was pregnant, with the new "heir" to the throne, Ivan Dmitriyevich.

1611 (March)--Poles Attacked in Moscow. The citizens of Moscow had participated freely in the coup in 1606, killing 500 Polish soldiers. Now, being ruled by them, they once again attacked. They took over the munitions store and burned the city. The Polish soldiers took refuge in the Moscow Kremlin and remained barricaded inside for an incredible 19 months.

Reportedly, the Poles had imprisoned the leader of the Orthodox church, Patriarch Germogen. When the Russians attacked Moscow, the Poles ordered him, as the man with the most authority with the Russians at the time, to sign a statement to call off the attack. Germogen refused, and was killed.

Sigismund III was criticized in Poland-Lithuania for not being able to hold onto Moscow, and also for neglecting the army. Many soldiers hadn't received pay and on return to Poland-Lithuania, began to pillage the countryside.

Further criticism on him came from the Ottoman Empire, because the Cossacks in the Ukraine had begun to make unsanctified raids into Turkish territory. The Poles-Lithuanians would get no support from the Ottoman Empire in holding onto Russia.

1611 (January)--Ivan Dmitriyevich Born. Maryna Mniszech gave birth to the second False Dmitry's son, Ivan Dmitriyevich, nine months after his death. She found support for her son's candidacy as heir to the Russian throne in Ivan Zarutsky, a man who had fought for the second False Dmitry. She soon married him. For the next three years, they garnered armed forces, to try to place the child as Tsar of Russia.

1611 (June 2)--Smolensk Falls to the Poles. After enduring 20 months of attack, two harsh winters and dwindling food supplies, the Russians in Smolensk finally retreated as the Polish-Lithuanian troops broke through the city gates.

The remaining Russian soldiers took refuge in a cathedral and blew themselves up with stores of dynamite to avoid death at the hands of the invaders. Although it was a blow to loose Smolensk, it freed up Russian troops to fight the Poles-Lithuanians in Moscow and the Russian commander at Smolensk, Shein, was considered a hero for holding out as long as he had. (See more on Shein & Smolensk.)

1611--More Foreign Tsars. The Russian Time of Great Troubles continued as other foreign tsars came to power. This included Duke Charles Philip from Sweden, the son of King Charles IX and brother to Gustav Adolph. He was tsar of Russia for a few months in 1611; he was ten years old. (See more on Charles IX.)

1612 (November 7)--Moscow Falls to the Russians. The siege of the Moscow Kremlin continued. A historian [Parker] writes vividly of the Polish soldiers: "First they ate grass and offal, then they ate each other, and the survivors finally surrendered. The Moscow Kremlin fell on 6 November 1612."

On November 7, the Polish soldiers withdrew from Moscow. November 7 became Russia's formal Independence Day in the 1990's because of this triumphant revolt and because November 7 coincided with the 1917 October Revolution - an all around auspicious date in Russian history. (See more on the October Revolution.)

Yeah, Poland was the aggressor nation for 500 years until the tables were turned, so we'll just ignore all that and stick to the "you're a victim" line. How absolutely convenient of you, and typical.

I told you that this number may include also Polish citizens from other ethnic groups: Jews, Ukrainians etc. but majority of them were Poles.

"BUT tell me honestly Greg after all we know now to say as m_68 that "700 thousand poles were kiled by russians and other 2 mlns sent to Sibiria" is distortion?"

What the hell do you want ? No one knows the exact number. I think that these numbers are right, but about one third of them were people from other ethnic groups who were Polish citizens before 39.